Manticoran Armament

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
Someday I will have to get the Jayne's References. I have seen the Mk50 mentioned as the Courageous/Noblesse class' missile launcher; it was built 50 years before the first laserheads. The laserhead in OBS that broke McBride's hip was 70 tons, and the mass of the contact nukes was never given.

there are no references to the Mk34 or the Mk38 in the text of the books. Are they somewhere else?

There is also no indication in the text of the books that the laserheads used by Fearless at OBS were the same as any others-- during the Fleet exercise, the laserheads used were 75 tons--smaller than the Mk 13, larger than Fearless'.( Also, likely subject to later revision).

The only nomenclature I know of that was used for pre-war missiles aside from the the Mk-13 was the initial capital-ship laserhead (Mk-19) and its longer-ranged successor the Mk27C (from Wayfarer's pods). The later missile was 120 tons, but I don't think the range was ever given in text. There isn't any data on either size or range for the Mk 19, except that its power and range would both be unpleasant surprises for the People's Navy (as of 1883, in HoS)-, because the PN was using the off-the-shelf missiles exported from the League.

Aside from the Mk50 launchers, we are told the launchers in the Star Knights are Mod 7s, and when HH got an introduction to the Courvosier class, they had the RMN's Mod 19 launchers. No data on missiles, ranges, etc. The launchers on the Saganami B was only given as "second generation;" while the Saganami-C and Roland used variants of a Mod 9. So were the Bravo's using Mod 8? Who knows isn't saying.

The Mk-34 and 38 are in the Jayne's guide and listed as the shipkillers for those specific classes of ship that I mentioned above. I combed through OBS but it didn't mention what type of missiles they were. The Jayne's guide said that Courageous-class CLs had the Mk 50 unlike most of the other cruisers currently in use so I put Fearless there.

Amaroq wrote:
The Mk-34 and 38 are in the Jayne's guide and listed as the shipkillers for those specific classes of ship that I mentioned above. I combed through OBS but it didn't mention what type of missiles they were. The Jayne's guide said that Courageous-class CLs had the Mk 50 unlike most of the other cruisers currently in use so I put Fearless there.

Without seeing the Guides, I couldn't guess. Pre-1870 missiles --and ships-- were designed for contract nukes. Even after 1870, the RMN didn't immediately reveal that they had developed their own versions. So when does the type of missile launched make a difference in ship construction?

We don't know what other light cruisers or DDs were in service; HoS only lists ships' stats for ships in service in 1904/5 when the war got going. But the other "cruisers" listed were Warrior and Truncheon class CAs, designed in the 1790s, about the time of the Redoubtables. If the Courageous class was using outdated launchers, it may have been stockpiles of parts for the frigates they were still building then, or just that the missiles were smaller. All of the descriptions are from the point of view of at least 1900; they might not have been considered "lightweight" and "obsolete" when the ships started construction in the 1820s.

RFC is quite deliberately vague on a lot of that (specific specs, I mean) from the very beginning. What were the 75 ton laserheads in the fleet exercise where HH potted D'Oreville? You listed the Mk19s as 130 tons, which also must be from Jayne's. That is actually more massive than the 120 tons for the Mk27C. If the Mk34 was the pre-war laserhead for light ships, that is probably the 70 ton laserhead Harkness was dragging around in OBS. We just never see the Mk38 in action, specifically, I suppose. However, RFC was consistent in saying BC missiles were heavier and longer ranged than cruiser missiles.

In another thread, a while back, someone from BuNine wrote that the Companion would have had some breakdowns on missiles, but the short novella got a bit too big, and it got trimmed. Hopefully in the next one.

IT is worth noting that the newer missiles had to fit the older launchers/feed systems and magazines unless you were going to stop and rebuild the whole ship.

In fact, the necessity of using existing magazines, missile handling equipment and launchers may be one very good reason (aside from fire control) why the League's missiles are so anemic in comparison, and why Manticore spent so much effort in miniaturizing components. It might well have been that their limitations were imposed by space available, not just available tech.


FWIW, the Erewhonese Mk17 was the Erewhonese locally built variation of Manticore's Mk14. But RFC (or Eric) made the point in text that Erewhon's tech isn't the same as Manti tech; and Erewhon was using Solarian tech to downsize and improve on Havenite designs. You are correct, I think, not to equate the missiles (Mk 14 and Mk 17) too closely, and you were on target saying there isn't enough text to go on. The Mk 14 may be less massive for the same performance. OTOH, the Erewhonese were building light ship missiles (those mk34s?) and Mk13s including a Mk13ER (cite: SoF, Hearns). While I would guess the Erewhonese did match the Mk14's range/warhead size, there is no sign in text of the missile being "off-bore" capable, and there isn't any text on its mass. But Roszak said, the range exceeded the Cataphract; which is listed somewhere as 14.5 M. I have been guessing the ERMs to have a range of about a light minute. But that is just a guess.


Rob

Amaroq wrote:
The Mk-34 and 38 are in the Jayne's guide and listed as the shipkillers for those specific classes of ship that I mentioned above. I combed through OBS but it didn't mention what type of missiles they were. The Jayne's guide said that Courageous-class CLs had the Mk 50 unlike most of the other cruisers currently in use so I put Fearless there.

Sorry, other cruisers listed in HoS in service at the start of the War were the Apollo variants and the Illustrious, and the wartime Valiants. The last couple classes would have been built with laserheads in mind. The Apollos were designed /built starting in the 1950s. But armament would have been contact nukes, at least originally, except for Valiant.

Rob

Bear in mind that there's a comment in one of the early books about warheads being selected as the missile is loaded, they're not fixed, at least for tube's, i imagine pods are. So once they got laser-heads they could have fitted them to older ships just by swapping the warhead loadouts and updating the missile software.

RMN laser heads can also be used in burner or sidewall penetrating mode. It's kind of rare these days to do so, but it is apparently easy add the capability.

Amaroq wrote:Comments: The remote drones/array section. I didn’t include many hard numbers here mostly because that information is lacking. Is there a make/model number for Keyhole-II? I’ve only ever seen it referred to as the Mark 2 platform. Additionally, any more information on the Ghost Rider RDs would be helpful. I wasn’t able to find anything concrete on their maximum acceleration or endurance.

I think "Mycroft," Manticore's FTL version of "Moriarity" should be included here. It apparently consists of numerous subsidiary FTL repeaters and one or more BC sized control centers.

Amaroq wrote:Missile Pods

1) Mark-10
2) Mark-11
3) Mark-15 (SfTS)
4) Mark-17 “Flatpack” pod
a. Compressed pod that allows for more pods to fit in
a given area and volume

I'm pretty sure each Pod Mk has a specific missile or missile group it can accomodate. Specifically, the "Flat Pack" pods are initially mentioned as Apollo specific because of the outsized launcher required for the large ACM and the need to jump-start the fusion reactors.

PS: it is also mentioned that HMS Ajax carried Mk 16s instead of Mk 23's because it could carry more MK-16s -- 12 missiles per pod instead of 8+1, IIRC.

I'm pretty sure the Apollo flat packs and the non Apollo flat packs are exactly the same form factor. But I haven't looked it up.

kzt wrote:I'm pretty sure the Apollo flat packs and the non Apollo flat packs are exactly the same form factor. But I haven't looked it up.

That was my understanding - the Apollo pods just replaced two of the standard Mark 23 launcher cells with a single cell for the control missile.

Weird Harold wrote:I'm pretty sure each Pod Mk has a specific missile or missile group it can accomodate. Specifically, the "Flat Pack" pods are initially mentioned as Apollo specific because of the outsized launcher required for the large ACM and the need to jump-start the fusion reactors.

PS: it is also mentioned that HMS Ajax carried Mk 16s instead of Mk 23's because it could carry more MK-16s -- 12 missiles per pod instead of 8+1, IIRC.

Minor nit: Pods carrying Mk16s have 14 missiles per pod, not 12. If the pod is carrying *only* Mk23s, there's 10 missiles per pod, and the Apollo variant carries the 8+1 you already mentioned.

If the Ajax had been armed with Mk23 pods, she would have had the 10-missile (no ACM) variant, since Mike didn't have Keyhole II to help with ACM control.

Dafmeister wrote:

kzt wrote:I'm pretty sure the Apollo flat packs and the non Apollo flat packs are exactly the same form factor. But I haven't looked it up.

That was my understanding - the Apollo pods just replaced two of the standard Mark 23 launcher cells with a single cell for the control missile.

All flat-pack pods, regardless of what missiles they are carrying, have the same external dimensions and capabilities. Current pods are all the same numerical designation (Mk17), but the mod suffix refers to the loadout - 14 Mk16s (Mod2c), 10 Mk23s (no mod number - initial version), 8 Mk23s + ACM (Mod4a), etc.

Check out my renders at my DeviantArt Agamemnon page (link in sig for anyone who doesn't already know that) and you should be able to get a pretty good estimate on the dimensions of a Mk17 pod (flat packs) by counting pixels. I have not been informed as to whether I can release exact dimensions, so until I'm told otherwise, I won't.

MaxxQ wrote:All flat-pack pods, regardless of what missiles they are carrying, have the same external dimensions and capabilities. Current pods are all the same numerical designation (Mk17), but the mod suffix refers to the loadout - 14 Mk16s (Mod2c), 10 Mk23s (no mod number - initial version), 8 Mk23s + ACM (Mod4a), etc.

Thanks.

That's basically what I was looking for. I take it that the current Mk 17 series can only launch fusion powered missiles and some other Mk or series handles the capacitor powered missiles? (Like the HMAMC Wayfarer's Mk-10 pods)