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The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.

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Re: The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.
Post by Castenea   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:51 pm

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akira.taylor wrote:
There is also the question of whether the SLN will implement the plan very well, given that it seems to be a MAlign plot. The plan could certainly work, but the MAlign may introduce . . . issues, to ensure the SLN fails. Or it could make sure the plan works beautifully, and hurts Manticore as much as possible (depends on what the MAlign thinks is most important at the time).

Honestly, given what we have heard of the SLN's logistics, I have doubts about raiding Silesia - it may be out of effective range for the SLN. I would guess that, on paper, they can operate ships there, but the support vessels and doctrine may well be missing. In fact, even on paper they may not be able to operate that far, without significant logistics support (possibly even to get there), thinking about the differences between US and British attitudes towards ship ranges/sizes pre-WWII.

While my opinion is that the commerce raiding strategy is intended to get the SLN out of the way for when the SL comes apart at the seams, this strategy seems to be currently less than a full plan. Such basic questions as "What ships are going to be doing the raiding?" are left unanswered (They will not be coming from Meyers). Do you want to be using DD, CL, or BC class ships? How long will the ships be on this mission? 6mo. seems to be a min for just the round trip.
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Re: The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.
Post by drothgery   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:42 pm

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Direwolf18 wrote:Commerce raiding is the only strategy I have seen the SLN propose that isn't completely stupid. Their ships are more then adequate to blow the hell out of merchies.
Eh. It's far less stupid than previous strategies, but that doesn't mean that it's anything resembling a good one. Where do they propose to raid GA commerce?

In GA and allied systems? Yeah, umm, that's probably not going to work unless you like losing wallers in the process of raiding commerce out in the boonies, which is not a net positive for the SLN.

In hyperspace? That's very difficult to do, according to RFC.

In neutral systems where shipping firms may play flag-of-convenience switching games? Yeah, the transtellars who need to use GA-controlled wormholes to meet their transit time deadlines will have a few things to say about that.

Within the League? If a League member has actual GA merchies in-system, I think it's safe to say that system may have a secession vote pending.
Last edited by drothgery on Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.
Post by n7axw   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 pm

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I agree commerce raiding is SLN's best option, but that doesn't make it a good one. IIRC, Kingsford's idea is to use Battlefleet's and Frontier Fleet's thousands of BCs for the job, carrying catapharats under wedge.

Two issues I see here. First I wonder if a lot of those BC's won't be kept closer to home in defensive role. Secondly, GA can put better equiped light units in any system it chooses to defend. SLN can lose a lot of BCs in a hurry against Rolands, for example or even Ferret class lacs.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.
Post by kzt   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:02 pm

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drothgery wrote:
In hyperspace? That's very difficult to do, according to RFC.

Not if you can sit on the alpha side of the hyperlimit of a system and wait. A typical star has a hyperlimit 20 lm in radius. On the alpha side that is 20 light seconds. So the entire system is 40 light seconds wide. So if you know roughly where merchants tend to cross the alpha wall you can be in ENERGY RANGE of them quite often. Bang.

And a Roland in an energy range fight with a BC will probably not come out well.

And best part is the LACs the the RMN has deployed for system protection can do exactly nothing about this.
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Re: The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.
Post by NortonIDaughter   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:32 pm

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munroburton wrote:
I think the GA considers Second Manticore a declaration of war. Honor warned Filareta as much before he crossed the hyper limit. Which means the Deneb Accords are now in effect. Though who would be available as the neutral observer between the SL/GA I have no idea.


I think it would be unwise to start treating SLN personnel as pirates, even if they technically count/ deserve it. As Theisman once pointed out, holding to the DA lets you keep the moral high ground in public opinion. And for Honor's "make my enemy my friend" plan to work, they're going to need all the moral high ground they can get.
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Re: The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:41 pm

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namelessfly wrote:The drift of the BB(P) thread got me thinking about commerce raiding given the evolving security environment in the SEM protectorates.

First and Second tier systems such as Manticore, Yelstin, Haven and the various systems involved in the Havenite wars are graveyards for even an SLN battle fleet. However; the newly annexed systems in Silesia, the Talbot quadrant, and the Verge are or will be getting nothing beyond LACs and missile pods with an occasional DD or CA dropping by to check on them. It would be suicidal for the SLN to raid these systems except may be with 100+ SDs. However; this defense posture does not preclude attacks outside of the hyper limit. Dropping into normal space to raid orbital platforms might not be practical, but it is open season on freighters once they cross the hyper wall.

The GA is short on ships to patrol the hyperspace volumes around it's newly acquired protectorates. It will be rough forafew years.
I suspect you're underestimating how hard it is to pull off an in-hyper intercept of a freighter without a stealthed ship or two playing Paul Revere in normal space to queue you in.

Inbound freighters are obviously tricky because they come in fairly fast up in the Delta bands and drop quickly into normal space (where they can be covered by LACs or orbital MDM pods)

But outbound isn't all that easy either. First it seems that conditions are poor enough that a single ship's sensors can't cover the entire hyper limit boundary, so you need multiple ships to even be likely to see an outbound freighter. Then the waiting raider can't really keep its hypergenertor in full readiness indefinitely (wear and maintenance) so there's a decent chance even if a freighter did pop across the Alpha bands heading up to Epsilon or Delta it's be 10 or more minutes before it go from Routine Readiness to actually jump up and begin the search. (RFC says even if it was in full readiness it still takes between 30 - 240 seconds to jump; based on size - so that's dispatch boat up to SD).

And even in a busy system there's a heck of a lot more downtime when there's no freighter traffic leaving than times when there is traffic. A system small enough not to rate hyper capable defenders is going to have even less. That's long waits for scarce prey.

Now with a ship or two lurking in normal space the raider gets a heads up on approximately when and where the freighter will be popping across the wall; so that lets it get positioned and the hyper generator on the trips ready to take chase.

But without that heads up there a lot of time for the freighter to get downrange and lost in the crappy sensor conditions. If it take a course change, or picks less than optimal hyper bands that search area gets a lot bigger.
And that ignores such counter raiding tactics as traveling further out in normal space before jumping up to get beyond the sensor range of any likely ship picketing the hyper limit in the alpha bands.


And if the SL raiders spend too much time hanging out it gives Manticore time to realize what's happening and move a fairly small hunter/killer group from system to system trolling for the lurking raiders. Then the SL BCs risk getting chased down by a squadron of Rolands, Sag-Cs, or even BC(P) or BC(L)s; depending on how annoyed Manticore is.


All that said, a raiding force might well get lucky and pick off a freighter or two before anyone realizes in-hyper raiding is a risk and targets begin taking precautions (leaving from randomized points along the hyper limit sphere; going well past the limit before jumping out; altering heading and bands a couple times on departure; etc; etc)
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Re: The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.
Post by kzt   » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:17 am

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Iirc, I've got about 20 lm range on sensors in hyper. So your merchants now need to get 20 light hours away from the system to before jumping into hyper. I suspect that will have seriously detrimental effects on your commerce, and also make attacking them in normal space a lot easier.
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Re: The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.
Post by Crown Loyalist   » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:10 am

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Will it work? Possibly. We're going to see more pitched battles, the SLN will take out some Manty shipping, maybe even a few Manty convoy escorts in the less hospitable combat environment of hyperspace.

But the SLN is not prepared to mount a commerce raiding strategy. How long did it take Giscard to put in place the logistical lines required to keep his squadron operating in Silesia in HAE, for instance? It's going to take the SLN time to get its squadrons ready, to identify possibly vulnerable positions, to deploy the ships, to give warranted orders. How long will the League hold together?

Moreover, a few victories - which, everyone will necessarily recognize are minor, compared to the massive setbacks the League has already suffered - aren't going to fundamentally turn around the political problems in the League. Between the Protectorates, Beowulf, and the lack of democratic oversight that's going to become more and more apparent as more systems start to actually worry about it for the first time in centuries, the League is wobbling, and it's going to be wobbling more. Beating up on Manty commerce in Talbot is not going to cripple the Manty economy; that would require (probably) stopping commerce between Manticore and Haven, which means stopping freighters somewhere between Trevor's Star and the Havenite core systems. Good luck with that.

So, the League is faced with a time crunch, because they have to turn this around fast. And the best tool they have for it is basically trying to dig a trench with a kitchen spoon.
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Re: The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.
Post by kzt   » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:43 am

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So where is the best place to deploy a graser torp if you wanted to bag a real HVT? Waiting quietly within graser range of a wormhole approach or departure lane. How heavy is the ventral or dorsal armor on a SD(P)?
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Re: The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.
Post by Eagleeye   » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:27 am

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kzt wrote:So where is the best place to deploy a graser torp if you wanted to bag a real HVT? Waiting quietly within graser range of a wormhole approach or departure lane. How heavy is the ventral or dorsal armor on a SD(P)?


Don't you think that a GA Blockade force of any wormhole will use some Ghostriders (or some LACs, if a CLAC is part of the blocking force - and we know that's true for at least one of them - see ART) zu cover the spherical space in a volume of say ... 20 or 30 lightseconds around any wormhole for which they have assumed responsibility?
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