Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 88 guests

Why did Mesa ever develop Congo

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:43 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

Jonathan_S wrote:
Borealis wrote:I would imagine a way to establish 'ownership' of the system to prevent anyone else from settling in and performing their own surveys.

Mesa wouldn't want to make things too obvious by putting in a huge amount of infrastructure, but creating a slave based drug factory would at least allow the overhead cost of being able to watch the wormhole terminus to break even.

In retrospect they'd have almost certainly been better off leaving the system vacant and trusting that nobody stumbled across it in the next hundred years or so.

Remember, at the point they founded Verdent Vista they weren't expecting the military tech advances that came out of the Manticore Haven wars, and therefore were on a much more leisurely schedule for reaching their endgame. I'm sure that timeline played into their decision to grab it officially rather than trusting to obscurity.

Actually, I'm trying to remember. Do we know how long ago the planet was settled?

But if they'd known they might need their secret backdoor into the Haven Quadrant as soon as the 1920's PD they might have been more willing to trust to obscurity.



There were three primary reasons for the decision to colonize Congo:

(1) The security of the wormhole had to be safeguarded at any cost, and that meant keeping anyone else from discovering and exploring it. Given the fact that it was in such close proximity to Erewhon, that it was a star system which was likely to have a life-bearing planet, that exploration would undoubtedly get around to checking that out as soon as Erewhon had the opportunity, and that it is now to check stars' gravitic profiles for possible wormholes, the only way to prevent someone else from exploring the wormhole was to secure ownership of the star system for themselves.

(2) Once they surveyed the system themselves, they recognized the pharmaceutical cornucopia that Congo/Verdant Vista represented. They also realized that anyone else who surveyed the system was likely to recognize the same thing, which meant that anyone else who surveyed the system (and somehow missed spotting the wormhole) was extremely likely to colonize/claim the planet because of its inherent value. By establishing their own claim to it ASAP, they preempted that outcome.

(3) By securing control of the system, they also secured the right to police and control all traffic into and out of the system. That put them in the strongest position to ensure (A) that no one had the opportunity to discover anything about wormholes that they weren't supposed to discover and (B) to manage the system's traffic control in a way which would preclude someone from "stumbling across" a Mesan Alignment ship transiting the wormhole.

They could have used a different front organization to seize control of the star system. They chose not to because every additional layer they worked through offered an additional opportunity for something to slip through the cracks and (more importantly) because Mesa was so repugnant to most of the galaxy and such a pariah that legitimate shipping was extremely unlikely to come anywhere near a Mesa-claimed star system. That was another major factor in controlling access to the wormhole junction and the possibility of a genuinely neutral observer seeing something he shouldn't see.

Now, it can certainly be argued that the decision worked out . . . poorly, but to be fair that was because of circumstances beyond the Alignment's control, including a rogue Havenite intelligence officer and a Manticoran aristocrat willing to kick over the traces and pursue a policy he could be pretty sure wasn't going to make his own government happy. And, of course, the turn the war took with the introduction of the MDM and (especially) Apollo hadn't happened yet when they made their decision about how to proceed in Verdant Vista's case.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
Top
Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by Theemile   » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:25 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

runsforcelery wrote:There were three primary reasons for the decision to colonize Congo:

(1) The security of the wormhole had to be safeguarded at any cost, and that meant keeping anyone else from discovering and exploring it. Given the fact that it was in such close proximity to Erewhon, that it was a star system which was likely to have a life-bearing planet, that exploration would undoubtedly get around to checking that out as soon as Erewhon had the opportunity, and that it is now to check stars' gravitic profiles for possible wormholes, the only way to prevent someone else from exploring the wormhole was to secure ownership of the star system for themselves.

(2) Once they surveyed the system themselves, they recognized the pharmaceutical cornucopia that Congo/Verdant Vista represented. They also realized that anyone else who surveyed the system was likely to recognize the same thing, which meant that anyone else who surveyed the system (and somehow missed spotting the wormhole) was extremely likely to colonize/claim the planet because of its inherent value. By establishing their own claim to it ASAP, they preempted that outcome.

(3) By securing control of the system, they also secured the right to police and control all traffic into and out of the system. That put them in the strongest position to ensure (A) that no one had the opportunity to discover anything about wormholes that they weren't supposed to discover and (B) to manage the system's traffic control in a way which would preclude someone from "stumbling across" a Mesan Alignment ship transiting the wormhole.

They could have used a different front organization to seize control of the star system. They chose not to because every additional layer they worked through offered an additional opportunity for something to slip through the cracks and (more importantly) because Mesa was so repugnant to most of the galaxy and such a pariah that legitimate shipping was extremely unlikely to come anywhere near a Mesa-claimed star system. That was another major factor in controlling access to the wormhole junction and the possibility of a genuinely neutral observer seeing something he shouldn't see.

Now, it can certainly be argued that the decision worked out . . . poorly, but to be fair that was because of circumstances beyond the Alignment's control, including a rogue Havenite intelligence officer and a Manticoran aristocrat willing to kick over the traces and pursue a policy he could be pretty sure wasn't going to make his own government happy. And, of course, the turn the war took with the introduction of the MDM and (especially) Apollo hadn't happened yet when they made their decision about how to proceed in Verdant Vista's case.



Wasn't Manticore's assistance in vacating Mesa from Verdant Vista one of the points Erewhon insisted on when they joined the Manty Alliance before the 1st war? And Manticore's lack of fulfilling that promise just another reason Erewhon left that allaince between the wars?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by namelessfly   » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:47 am

namelessfly

I think that the Mesan alignment has demonstrated a profound appreciation for the strategic military value of wormholes. Given their anticipation of military operations, they would feel compelled to secure any wormhole that they were not confident would remain undiscovered. Something like the Linx terminus could be ignored, but Congo was simply to valuable.

Keep in mind that with Honorverse technology, they probably do not need to send a ship to every star system to discover habitable planets. We are detecting planets now using current technology. Given very long baseline interferometers in space with very large aperture (kilometers) telescopes perhaps using gravity technology lensing, (KZT and SMR no doubt understand the potential), they can image continents on planets not just the planets and collect enough IR spectrum data to KNOW what the climate is and spectroscopic data to know atmospheric composition and thus detect a viable biosphere.

If Mesa wants to secure a strategic wormhole terminus that is near habitable and valuable planet, they need to grab it ASAP.
Top
Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by SWM   » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:08 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

namelessfly wrote:I think that the Mesan alignment has demonstrated a profound appreciation for the strategic military value of wormholes. Given their anticipation of military operations, they would feel compelled to secure any wormhole that they were not confident would remain undiscovered. Something like the Linx terminus could be ignored, but Congo was simply to valuable.

Keep in mind that with Honorverse technology, they probably do not need to send a ship to every star system to discover habitable planets. We are detecting planets now using current technology. Given very long baseline interferometers in space with very large aperture (kilometers) telescopes perhaps using gravity technology lensing, (KZT and SMR no doubt understand the potential), they can image continents on planets not just the planets and collect enough IR spectrum data to KNOW what the climate is and spectroscopic data to know atmospheric composition and thus detect a viable biosphere.

If Mesa wants to secure a strategic wormhole terminus that is near habitable and valuable planet, they need to grab it ASAP.

As far as we can tell, the Alliance is not trying to grab every wormhole it can. The Congo wormhole was special. They weren't nosing around the Erewhon neighborhood, sniffing out potential wormholes or habitable planets to claim. They discovered Congo by transiting through the wormhole they had secretly discovered. They grabbed Congo because the wormhole junction it was a part of was connected to the secret planet they were using to build a navy with new technology they didn't want anyone to know about. They could not afford for anyone to poke around that particular wormhole, and it was in an area that Erewhon was already interested in exploiting.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:31 pm

JohnRoth
Admiral

Posts: 2438
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:54 am
Location: Centreville, VA, USA

SWM wrote:
namelessfly wrote:I think that the Mesan alignment has demonstrated a profound appreciation for the strategic military value of wormholes. Given their anticipation of military operations, they would feel compelled to secure any wormhole that they were not confident would remain undiscovered. Something like the Linx terminus could be ignored, but Congo was simply to valuable.

Keep in mind that with Honorverse technology, they probably do not need to send a ship to every star system to discover habitable planets. We are detecting planets now using current technology. Given very long baseline interferometers in space with very large aperture (kilometers) telescopes perhaps using gravity technology lensing, (KZT and SMR no doubt understand the potential), they can image continents on planets not just the planets and collect enough IR spectrum data to KNOW what the climate is and spectroscopic data to know atmospheric composition and thus detect a viable biosphere.

If Mesa wants to secure a strategic wormhole terminus that is near habitable and valuable planet, they need to grab it ASAP.

As far as we can tell, the Alliance is not trying to grab every wormhole it can. The Congo wormhole was special. They weren't nosing around the Erewhon neighborhood, sniffing out potential wormholes or habitable planets to claim. They discovered Congo by transiting through the wormhole they had secretly discovered. They grabbed Congo because the wormhole junction it was a part of was connected to the secret planet they were using to build a navy with new technology they didn't want anyone to know about. They could not afford for anyone to poke around that particular wormhole, and it was in an area that Erewhon was already interested in exploiting.


I think you meant the MAlign, not the Alliance. :roll:

Otherwise, exactly.

The other issue is that The Twins are an anomaly, and, according to the conversation between the McBryde brothers in ToF, they'd "fully mined the military implications forty years ago." Which implies that there are things to learn from a close study that have military value other than its strategic back door to the Haven sector.
Top
Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by SWM   » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:20 am

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

JohnRoth wrote:The other issue is that The Twins are an anomaly, and, according to the conversation between the McBryde brothers in ToF, they'd "fully mined the military implications forty years ago." Which implies that there are things to learn from a close study that have military value other than its strategic back door to the Haven sector.

Actually, the text says (bold added for emphasis):
We settled most of the military implications decades ago. I'm sure someone else's still working on the theory behind it full time, but we've pretty much mined out the military concerns.

They mined out the military concerns, and settled the military implications. Settling implications and mining concerns does not really imply technological development. This text could simply mean they looked into whether the unique features of the system would cause problems for defending the wormholes, or whether the wormholes would be reliable for military uses at some future point. But it could mean some new development was made from analyzing the Twins.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:30 pm

Brigade XO
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3238
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

If a Mesan/Alignment wormhole exploration ship came out of the Torch end of the wormhole and the system right next to that wormhole has a planet that can support humans living out in the open why would they NOT claim and colonize the planet?

If for nothing else, it provides that a front (Manpower) owns the system and with a colony in-place would control the space around it. I would suspect that any planet where humans can live out on the surface without domes or having to deal with something like Cerberus (where none of the life forms can be used to support human life) or will kill off any terrestrial plants and animals, people will find that there should be something there that have potential for pharmaceutical development. That there turned out to be a lot of that was good fortune for Mesa/Manpower. It gives them a valid reason for setting up on the planet, establishing at least an orbital transfer station and orbital industry related to drug production and resource processing within the system.

That same ownership would also let them restrict access to the system. I don’t recall what the back-story is on what they told the rest of the universe as to how they found and auqired it but they would be within their rights to not let anyone in. They could send ships to the near systems – like Erewhon and Maya- to announce ownership and that while they anticipated probably making purchases from those and other systems, all traffic would be handled by Manpower owned or chartered ships and no others would be allowed to enter or trade with the system.
Top
Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:57 pm

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi SWM,

Didn't we have a hint from RFC a couple of years ago that by the time the MAlg wars ended, some warships could generate their own wormholes, but it was too expensive for typical commercial freighters?

At least for the time being. ;)

L


SWM wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:The other issue is that The Twins are an anomaly, and, according to the conversation between the McBryde brothers in ToF, they'd "fully mined the military implications forty years ago." Which implies that there are things to learn from a close study that have military value other than its strategic back door to the Haven sector.

Actually, the text says (bold added for emphasis):
We settled most of the military implications decades ago. I'm sure someone else's still working on the theory behind it full time, but we've pretty much mined out the military concerns.

They mined out the military concerns, and settled the military implications. Settling implications and mining concerns does not really imply technological development. This text could simply mean they looked into whether the unique features of the system would cause problems for defending the wormholes, or whether the wormholes would be reliable for military uses at some future point. But it could mean some new development was made from analyzing the Twins.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by Theemile   » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:59 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

lyonheart wrote:Hi SWM,

Didn't we have a hint from RFC a couple of years ago that by the time the MAlg wars ended, some warships could generate their own wormholes, but it was too expensive for typical commercial freighters?

At least for the time being. ;)

L




I remember that hint as well. I believe it was related to
Mesa's research.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by Garth 2   » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:14 pm

Garth 2
Captain of the List

Posts: 426
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:04 am

It may have been that Mesa (Manpower or the relevant pharmaceutical company) didn't actually know about the termini when it was encouraged to take custody of the planet.
A possible rough timeline is below:

MA found Congo sometime ago whilst exploring the 'twins'
(recognised the opportunities for a back door in the Haven Sector)
The MA had no interest in the planet and kept quite about the termini
An effectively independent review of Congo (by a Mesa organisation) highlighted the pharmaceutical potential resulting in some interest (also the possibility of using the planet as transhipping point for slave labour)
The Mesan authorities therefore take over the planet due to the wealth potential, but the MA discreetly direct the development
Eventually an unofficial identification of the wormhole occurs but Mesa (officially) doesn't have the resources or technical know how to exploit or review the termini and rumors start to be heard
The MA discreetly discourages the official Mesa authorities from researching the termini
Then the events in Crown of Slaves occurs

Overall don't forget the MA doesn't complete control Mesa, it can direct actions and piggy back its own operations through it but it can't stop them from doing things if the people normally in charge want to (e.g. the attack on Countess of Tor)
Top

Return to Honorverse