detecting spider drive ships

darrell wrote:A CLAC with 100 LAC's costs less to build than 100 frigates, requires less than half the manpower to run, and can be used for other things than just searching for spider drive ships. Although a frigate (or LAC) could distroy a ghost class if it is truely unarmed, it will likely take a SD to be able to stand up to the detwiler class.

Most frigates are NOT more powerful than a LAC. They are a bastard hybrid between a LAC and a courrier boat, having a LAC's weapons tonnage with a hyper generator and sail. A frigate is effective against an uarmed ship, has a 50% chance of being destroyed by a single LAC, and will be toast against any merchant that has any weapons whatsoever or any DD or larger warship.

A DD has 2-3 times the weapons tonnage of a Frigate, only costs 50% more to build, and requires only 25% more crew than a frigate.

I will disagree with a frigate being instant toast against an armed freighter, due to the frigate having at least a minimal sidewall and better internal compartmentalization. I believe that the real result would be a case of who shoots first wins, thus any armed freighter should hold fire, not revealing it is armed until it can kill the frigate.

Frigates are built for two reasons; Lack of immediate cash and desire for a hyper capable platform (most pirates). Desire to learn how to run and build a warship on a cheaper and quicker to build platform (mistakes are relatively less expensive on a frigate than a larger ship).

I suspect that in the scramble resulting from the Leagues coming implosion, many systems will be building frigates to cover the gap until they can get real warships of their own. Any frigate built by/for a system navy will likely have a long service life as either armed VIP transport or training ship. The time anyone, but a pirate, would consider frigates as anything resembling a front line ship are long since over.

Remember that the Nat Turner class frigates of the Torch Navy were primarily intended as training ships and that the Torch Navy was planning on acquiring Destroyers and larger for their Navy as soon as they could afford the better ships with the trained crews from the Nat Turners becoming the core of the larger ships crews.

Castenea wrote:
I suspect that in the scramble resulting from the Leagues coming implosion, many systems will be building frigates to cover the gap until they can get real warships of their own. Any frigate built by/for a system navy will likely have a long service life as either armed VIP transport or training ship. The time anyone, but a pirate, would consider frigates as anything resembling a front line ship are long since over.

Remember that the Nat Turner class frigates of the Torch Navy were primarily intended as training ships and that the Torch Navy was planning on acquiring Destroyers and larger for their Navy as soon as they could afford the better ships with the trained crews from the Nat Turners becoming the core of the larger ships crews.

The Nat Turner class was developed for the "Anti-Slavery League" before Torch was a glimmer in anyone's eye.

It's a warship equivalent of a .32ACP pistol and a person wearing a leather jacket.

The pistol - too small a bullet for most people to carry if they expect to actually go out some place they expect trouble...unless you are broke, and someone gave it to you. The leather jacket doesn't protect you from bullets...but at least a knife will have a bit of trouble slashing you.

The .32ACP handgun may in fact be very well made weapon using 1st rate ammo...But when all is said and done, it's a .32ACP.

You are tossing a 60 grain bullet at about 800-950 feet per second if you are lucky. You better be a fast, accurate shooter...and your target better not be all that well protected.

If you want to rob unarmed people (hijack slavers) or assassinate people (Ambush a courier boat carrying someone you don't like...) scout or transport your own people with a modicum of protection (because even criminals don't like being shot at...) then it's fine.

OK, not fine...but better than nothing.

But if you were going to war?

Or even a real fight?

You'd do you best to upgrade ASAP.

Would you try to upgrade to a M-14 & a Glock 17, with body armor and 6 friends?

Um, not unless you won lotto...

But buying a security company's trade in .38 special revolvers (I like the Rugers, but S&W or Colt will suffice) & a Post Vietnam Era Ballistic Nylon vest (not quite a bullet proof vest, but some protection) will put you into a much more capable position.

As capable as a 1st rate equipped person?

No. But instead of carrying a gun throwing a 60 grain bullet at 800-950 FPS you can throw a 125 to 158 grain bullet at 900-1100 FPS, which is going to be much more effective.

And as to protection, well...it's better than your leather jacket and if someone takes a shot at you with a .32APC...he will have a bad day, and you may need a bandaid.

With this new new capability you can do what you were doing just as well...but in addition, you can hit people much harder, at longer ranges and take a bit more risks without exposing yourself to immediate death.

Castenea wrote:

darrell wrote:A CLAC with 100 LAC's costs less to build than 100 frigates, requires less than half the manpower to run, and can be used for other things than just searching for spider drive ships. Although a frigate (or LAC) could distroy a ghost class if it is truely unarmed, it will likely take a SD to be able to stand up to the detwiler class.

Most frigates are NOT more powerful than a LAC. They are a bastard hybrid between a LAC and a courrier boat, having a LAC's weapons tonnage with a hyper generator and sail. A frigate is effective against an uarmed ship, has a 50% chance of being destroyed by a single LAC, and will be toast against any merchant that has any weapons whatsoever or any DD or larger warship.

A DD has 2-3 times the weapons tonnage of a Frigate, only costs 50% more to build, and requires only 25% more crew than a frigate.

I will disagree with a frigate being instant toast against an armed freighter, due to the frigate having at least a minimal sidewall and better internal compartmentalization. I believe that the real result would be a case of who shoots first wins, thus any armed freighter should hold fire, not revealing it is armed until it can kill the frigate.

Let me refer you to when pirates bane went up against a new havenite destroyer.

War of Honor wrote:"Yes." Bachfisch leaned back against his pillow. "We hit a bad patch. Particle densities went way up, and I had to close up on her if I wanted to hold her on sensors. From what her survivors say, that was probably what drew her attention to us. At any rate, she was waiting when we transitioned to wedge." ... clipped ...

At any rate, I jumped. I didn't pull the trigger, perhaps, but I did stop requesting him to stand clear and order him to. And I also ordered the plating over our weapons bays jettisoned."

"At which point," Gruber put in harshly, "they definitely opened the ball."

"Yes," Bachfisch agreed heavily. "Yes, they certainly did." ... clipped ...

As soon as they saw our weapons, they opened fire ... clipped ...

"We took her survivors aboard afterward," he said heavily. "There were only forty-three of them,

So a lightly armed q-ship took on a destroyer and won, even though the destroyer fired first. And since a frigage has half the armament of a destroyer or less, the chance that a frigate would servive against a q-ship, which is designed to kill frigates, is very very slim. Remember that frigates don't have any armor.

Castenea wrote: Frigates are built for two reasons; Lack of immediate cash and desire for a hyper capable platform (most pirates). Desire to learn how to run and build a warship on a cheaper and quicker to build platform (mistakes are relatively less expensive on a frigate than a larger ship).

I suspect that in the scramble resulting from the Leagues coming implosion, many systems will be building frigates to cover the gap until they can get real warships of their own. Any frigate built by/for a system navy will likely have a long service life as either armed VIP transport or training ship. The time anyone, but a pirate, would consider frigates as anything resembling a front line ship are long since over.

Remember that most league SDF's have LAC's for anti-piracy duties. A LAC will provide the training ships for most systems, and there will be lots of merchant spacers that can be drafted to run hyper generators and sails.

Although it is possible that some SL worlds might build frigates after the breakup, I don't think it is likely. Remember that destroyers are only 50% bigger, require only 25% more crew, and have 2-3 times the weapons tonnage. Any leage would with even a repair yard will definatly have the resources to build BC's with little modifications to the shipyards. It would only take slighty longer to build a DD as the first warship, so why build frigates? Need security against pirates? LAC's do it just as well and are less expensive. It is not likely that any leage system will have a use for a frigate.

And for personel, there is likely to be lots of out of work former SLN people after the league breakup, and not all of them will be alliance POW's.

Castenea wrote:Remember that the Nat Turner class frigates of the Torch Navy were primarily intended as training ships and that the Torch Navy was planning on acquiring Destroyers and larger for their Navy as soon as they could afford the better ships with the trained crews from the Nat Turners becoming the core of the larger ships crews.

The Nat Turner class, when they were built, were intended as slave ship hunter/killers.

The Nat Turner class was built for the Anti-Slavery Leage, a private corperation before torch was liberated. (unoffically, the ballroom.) Once Torch was liberated, the ASL turned the ships over to torch, and torch is using them as training ships, they were not built as training ships.

Frigate's could be like an .32acp pistol but a spider drive ships defense is like a sheet of paper.

To maximize frigate fire-power,one or two donkey is a good solution. Or some missiles pods stick on hull.

Frigate objective is not to replace the importance of modern LAC but to have a fast and easy solution to test detection capacity against spider drive ships.

If he can destroyed spider drive ships, it's a good point but if he are only able to detect it, LAC or heavier ships could do the job. Frigate is hyper-capable, LAC not. And with the drestruction of manties infrastructure, some frigates could be construct.

Hi all,

I know we have discussed it before but, I think LAC caring Q-Ships made from refitted freighters is the way to go. Launch the LACs if a MSN Shark fires they can triangulate it's position, and go on the attack, just saying. Perhaps a few smaller navy ships to give weight to the escort force. These Q-Ships provide the convoy some protection and extra sensor platforms from their LACs aid in detection just as Jeep Carriers and their airplanes did for the convoys of WW II in detecting submarines.

Poker

pokermind wrote:Hi all,

I know we have discussed it before but, I think LAC caring Q-Ships made from refitted freighters is the way to go. Launch the LACs if a MSN Shark fires they can triangulate it's position, and go on the attack, just saying. Perhaps a few smaller navy ships to give weight to the escort force. These Q-Ships provide the convoy some protection and extra sensor platforms from their LACs aid in detection just as Jeep Carriers and their airplanes did for the convoys of WW II in detecting submarines.

The firepower of the MAN spiders is likely to be enough that there is no "after they fire" action if you are a freighter. The MAN has a pretty good idea about how many missiles a RMN ship can likely stop, and a can deliver more then a few light warships can handle.

This assumes the spider is still there. Graser torps can operate for months while waiting for targets.

dragonangel59 wrote:Frigate's could be like an .32acp pistol but a spider drive ships defense is like a sheet of paper.

So the Mesan Alignment would design a ship which cannot defend itself from the space equivalent of a coast guard cutter?

I see...

Not.

Mitchell, Esq. wrote:

dragonangel59 wrote:Frigate's could be like an .32acp pistol but a spider drive ships defense is like a sheet of paper.

So the Mesan Alignment would design a ship which cannot defend itself from the space equivalent of a coast guard cutter?

I see...

Not.

They don't have an impeller wedge or sidewalls (I beleive the author has shot down bubble sidewalls on spider drive ships), and have terrible accelleration compared to impeller drive ships (which means they're not very manueverable). Their defenses are going to be... poor, and there's nothing the Alignment can do about it, no matter how good the armor and active defenses are. But that's no excuse to build white elephants, err, frigates.

drothgery wrote:They don't have an impeller wedge or sidewalls (I beleive the author has shot down bubble sidewalls on spider drive ships),

Can you source that? The only statement I can recall about sidewalls on spider drives was that sidewalls couldn't be operated in conjunction with the spider drive itself - doesn't rule out having a sidewall available to use in emergencies.

Of course, a spider-drive ship's first defense is stealth. If you can't localise them, you can't shoot them.

Werrf wrote:

drothgery wrote:They don't have an impeller wedge or sidewalls (I beleive the author has shot down bubble sidewalls on spider drive ships),

Can you source that? The only statement I can recall about sidewalls on spider drives was that sidewalls couldn't be operated in conjunction with the spider drive itself - doesn't rule out having a sidewall available to use in emergencies.

Of course, a spider-drive ship's first defense is stealth. If you can't localise them, you can't shoot them.

The ghost class spider ships used in oyster bay were designed as scout ships, as such, the ghost class has few weapons and minimal armor and defenses.

The detwiler class spider ships currently under construction are SD analogs, as such they will have significant armor to go along with bubble sidewalls.