pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:At one point did Beowulf have a Constitutional limit on the size of their fleet?

Not that I recall or can find. AFAIK their system defense fleet's size was limited only by their willingness to pay for it -- and that would be true for any full member of the League.

The only constitutional limitation of Beowulf I was able to find in the books for Beowulf was in the anthology Beginnings

Beginnings wrote:Beowulfers took their civil liberties seriously, and the system constitution had established hard, definitive limitations on electronic surveillance from the very beginning of the colony. Citizens had an absolute right to the best privacyware—not just encryption software, but software to disable locator functions and tracking techniques—without government-mandated back doors and workarounds. In general, the colonel approved of that state of affairs, but it could be a pain in the arse for law enforcement . . . or for the Biological Survey Corps on the very rare occasions when it operated on Beowulf itself.

(Once they became aware of the rapid evolution of warfighting in the Haven sector they made a conscious decision not to deploy that new tech into their SDF, in order to help keep it from the League. I suspect that there wasn't much interest in growing the size of their SDF after about 1900 PD as they knew that they'd be building more ships of obsolete designs. No point in throwing good money after bad, since IIRC they already had the larges and most powerful SDF in the League -- at at least 36 wallers [4.5 squadrons]; so were already pretty well covered against any threat that didn't have Haven sector weaponry)

Huh? 36 wallers is characterized as only a System Defense Force? That would be a large navy to most planets.

The reason I asked if there was a Constitutional limit is because I find it hard to believe that economics would prevent Beowulf from building an actual navy instead of simply a SDF.

penny wrote:The reason I asked if there was a Constitutional limit is because I find it hard to believe that economics would prevent Beowulf from building an actual navy instead of simply a SDF.

We do not know how large Beowulf's naval force will be in the future, we only know how large it has been in the past. When it was part of the Solarian League it only needed an SDF, because it was only concerned about anti-slavery activity. Now as part of the Grand Alliance, we have not yet seen the author's plans; so we do not know at what scale Beowulf's navy will be expected to operate. When I said the limit was economic; I was merely suggesting that the bound was set by how much they wanted to spend, but not by how much they could afford to spend.

penny wrote:Huh? 36 wallers is characterized as only a System Defense Force? That would be a large navy to most planets.

The reason I asked if there was a Constitutional limit is because I find it hard to believe that economics would prevent Beowulf from building an actual navy instead of simply a SDF.

I believe, that as a matter of policy (though I don't recall the books explicitly stating that), a League member's own naval forces are always categorized as a system defense force. No matter how large they become.

So the Beowulf SDF was, as of 1900 PD, probably easily within the top 10 largest/most powerful naval organization in the Honorverse -- but it was still called an SDF, just the same as some other League system that just had some LACs for local anti-piracy and customs enforcement patrols. (Beowulf's SDF might well have been #5 at that point -- SLN, Haven, Manticore, Andermani, Beowulf)

I'm guessing the terminology difference is to help emphasize that it's the SLN that's supposed to be doing all the other naval missions beyond local defense. Only the League as a whole can have something called a navy. Since member worlds can't have their own foreign policy they don't need fleets to go show the flag, or make port visits to allies, or engage in gunboat diplomacy. And they're certainly not allowed to declare war or try to capture other systems. And it is the SLN that's supposed to be raiding pirate havens, and deterring any other nation from attacking any League world or shipping. So a member's fleet isn't (or shouldn't be) doing the full range of things a navy normally does.

But I'm sure Beowulf could have built a bigger fleet. But prior to the recent events what would they have used it for?
They were already in the top 10 and anyone who attacked them would soon be facing the largest fleet (not to mention that if there was any warning the RMN might show up to help defend the place). Their anti-slavery work was mostly done by cruisers and BSC deniable/covert assets; don't need more battle squadrons for that.



It wasn't until they started contemplating having to leave the League that there would have been a need to really build up their fleet. And that's basically when they did start -- via participation in the common GA building program (hulls from Bolthole then electronics/weapons from Beowulf -- until Manticore's yards were rebuilt). It's just that not enough time has passed for us to see any of those new ships for Beowulf's upgraded (and likely expanded) fleet.

Jonathan_S wrote:But I'm sure Beowulf could have built a bigger fleet. But prior to the recent events what would they have used it for?
They were already in the top 10 and anyone who attacked them would soon be facing the largest fleet (not to mention that if there was any warning the RMN might show up to help defend the place). Their anti-slavery work was mostly done by cruisers and BSC deniable/covert assets; don't need more battle squadrons for that.

The RMN Home Fleet would be able to respond much quicker than any SLN detachment.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Huh? 36 wallers is characterized as only a System Defense Force? That would be a large navy to most planets.

The reason I asked if there was a Constitutional limit is because I find it hard to believe that economics would prevent Beowulf from building an actual navy instead of simply a SDF.

I believe, that as a matter of policy (though I don't recall the books explicitly stating that), a League member's own naval forces are always categorized as a system defense force. No matter how large they become.

So the Beowulf SDF was, as of 1900 PD, probably easily within the top 10 largest/most powerful naval organization in the Honorverse -- but it was still called an SDF, just the same as some other League system that just had some LACs for local anti-piracy and customs enforcement patrols. (Beowulf's SDF might well have been #5 at that point -- SLN, Haven, Manticore, Andermani, Beowulf)

I'm guessing the terminology difference is to help emphasize that it's the SLN that's supposed to be doing all the other naval missions beyond local defense. Only the League as a whole can have something called a navy. Since member worlds can't have their own foreign policy they don't need fleets to go show the flag, or make port visits to allies, or engage in gunboat diplomacy. And they're certainly not allowed to declare war or try to capture other systems. And it is the SLN that's supposed to be raiding pirate havens, and deterring any other nation from attacking any League world or shipping. So a member's fleet isn't (or shouldn't be) doing the full range of things a navy normally does.

But I'm sure Beowulf could have built a bigger fleet. But prior to the recent events what would they have used it for?
They were already in the top 10 and anyone who attacked them would soon be facing the largest fleet (not to mention that if there was any warning the RMN might show up to help defend the place). Their anti-slavery work was mostly done by cruisers and BSC deniable/covert assets; don't need more battle squadrons for that.



It wasn't until they started contemplating having to leave the League that there would have been a need to really build up their fleet. And that's basically when they did start -- via participation in the common GA building program (hulls from Bolthole then electronics/weapons from Beowulf -- until Manticore's yards were rebuilt). It's just that not enough time has passed for us to see any of those new ships for Beowulf's upgraded (and likely expanded) fleet.

There it is! That's the limitation involving the SDF that I wasn't quite sure I had read. So Beowulf couldn't grow a navy in name only. And in function. Beowulf could build for defense. Not for offense. Which could probably get a little thorny and tricky, because sometimes a good defense is a good offense.

Let's face it. The SL could not protect its many systems. It could only protect via the fear of reprisals.

penny wrote:There it is! That's the limitation involving the SDF that I wasn't quite sure I had read. So Beowulf couldn't grow a navy in name only. And in function. Beowulf could build for defense. Not for offense. Which could probably get a little thorny and tricky, because sometimes a good defense is a good offense.

Let's face it. The SL could not protect its many systems. It could only protect via the fear of reprisals.

And that deterrence only callability of the SLN is part of why member systems were allowed to fund and operate their own SDFs -- so if they chose they could have something more than threat of SLN reprisal to protect against attacks. (The other part is that the independent sovereign worlds who agreed to form the early League didn't want to give up their rights to self-defense)

Though, as a practical matter, we don't know if Beowulf had invested in the logistics and fleet train that would be necessary to use their SDF in an expeditionary manner.
Their force projection capabilities might have been significantly less than you'd expect out of a navy their size.

(I don't think there would be any rules prohibiting a League member world from building such a fleet logistics train -- I just don't know if Beowulf historically bothered; given their anticipated local-only use of their SDF's battle squadrons)

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:There it is! That's the limitation involving the SDF that I wasn't quite sure I had read. So Beowulf couldn't grow a navy in name only. And in function. Beowulf could build for defense. Not for offense. Which could probably get a little thorny and tricky, because sometimes a good defense is a good offense.

Let's face it. The SL could not protect its many systems. It could only protect via the fear of reprisals.

And that deterrence only callability of the SLN is part of why member systems were allowed to fund and operate their own SDFs -- so if they chose they could have something more than threat of SLN reprisal to protect against attacks. (The other part is that the independent sovereign worlds who agreed to form the early League didn't want to give up their rights to self-defense)

Though, as a practical matter, we don't know if Beowulf had invested in the logistics and fleet train that would be necessary to use their SDF in an expeditionary manner.
Their force projection capabilities might have been significantly less than you'd expect out of a navy their size.

(I don't think there would be any rules prohibiting a League member world from building such a fleet logistics train -- I just don't know if Beowulf historically bothered; given their anticipated local-only use of their SDF's battle squadrons)

If member systems are allowed to have their own SDF, then it should not matter if a neighbor loaned their SDF out to another in an emergency. Then if Beowulf had gotten the intel in time, some units of its SDF could have assisted Hypatia.

penny wrote:If member systems are allowed to have their own SDF, then it should not matter if a neighbor loaned their SDF out to another in an emergency. Then if Beowulf had gotten the intel in time, some units of its SDF could have assisted Hypatia.

Didn't the attack on Hypatia happened after Beowulf left the League? If I'm remembering correctly then it wouldn't actually have mattered anymore to them what rules might (or might not) have applied to a member worlds use of its SDF. (Though it appears that it might have happened in the interval between Beowulf announcing its intention and actually holding its plebiscite to let it's citizen vote on the matter)

However, I found a interesting tidbit while trying to very quickly confirm my recollection

Uncompromising Honor wrote:The Cachalot System, 50.6 LY from Dzung and only 49.6 LY from Beowulf, was an independent system which had opted against joining the Solarian League when it was initially founded. It was also a prosperous, heavily populated system which had been a Beowulf trading partner for the better part of a thousand years…and depended on the Beowulf System Defense Force to provide its rapid response security force. Its organic “military forces” consisted of no more than a couple of dozen frigates and LACs, because no one would be insane enough to attack someone so closely associated with one of the League’s founding and most powerful star systems.

So clearly a member world was allowed to use its SDF to help neighbors even ones that weren't members of the League.

That being so I'm sure that even back before leaving the League if another member like Hypatia was threatened and Beowulf knew in time to help they would have.

penny wrote:If member systems are allowed to have their own SDF, then it should not matter if a neighbor loaned their SDF out to another in an emergency. Then if Beowulf had gotten the intel in time, some units of its SDF could have assisted Hypatia.

Jonathan_S wrote:Didn't the attack on Hypatia happened after Beowulf left the League? If I'm remembering correctly then it wouldn't actually have mattered anymore to them what rules might (or might not) have applied to a member worlds use of its SDF. (Though it appears that it might have happened in the interval between Beowulf announcing its intention and actually holding its plebiscite to let it's citizen vote on the matter).

The problem I see with Beowulf helping Hypatia, is that such action would be more in the form of moral support, than effective assistance. Beowulf's ships are still Solarian standard at that point and would be greatly outnumbered by the SLN forces sent to destroy the orbitals. Even the ships from Manticore took major damage, except for the one equipped with multi-drive missiles. So Beowulf certainly would send the ships and lose them making a moral point and a physical defeat.

Jonathan_S wrote:Didn't the attack on Hypatia happened after Beowulf left the League? If I'm remembering correctly then it wouldn't actually have mattered anymore to them what rules might (or might not) have applied to a member worlds use of its SDF. (Though it appears that it might have happened in the interval between Beowulf announcing its intention and actually holding its plebiscite to let it's citizen vote on the matter)

After announcing the plebiscite to leave the League but before actually running it. Hypatia was faster to have their own version and the RMN was going to be available right after it passed. But unlike Beowulf, Hypatia and Cachalot had no strong SDF, so the League could walk over them. The League could not try such a thing with Beowulf. Operation Fabius was a hit-and-run because even the old SLN-design First Fleet could handle the force sent to them. And if SDs translated from hyper, the RMN Home Fleet would respond too.

But because the RMN and the GA did not seem to look like they were influencing the outcome, they had to be inconspicuous and could not directly challenge the SLN Task Force before they started deploying their missiles.