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Theisman, and Chin

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Re: Theisman, and Chin
Post by tlb   » Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:50 pm

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Louis R wrote:As already mentioned, Tom Theisman wasn't - officially - acting as a Peep when he was captured [he'd been sold to Masada along with his ship], so when he decided he wanted to go home after he was let off the hook, no one could stop him. Come to think of it, I'm not sure there was a hook for him to be on in the first place. The state of war between Masada and Yeltsin was real enough that he had done nothing that could justify piracy charges, so - again, officially - at worst he was a mercenary whose employer had just gone rather permanently out of business. Something that is no more illegal in the Honorverse than it was in early-modern Europe.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'd say that he was there as part of the technology transfer team, teaching the Masadans to operate the two ships they had acquired from the PRH. He wasn't in command, he was simply ensuring that the Masadans were learning. And then he got carried to the Yeltsin's Star system by those mad Masadans and thrust into the war that wasn't his.

That could have been a nice excuse, but for the fact that it was actually true. He didn't know the exact details of the payment for the two ships, but given that the PRH was getting something out of it (basing rights?), the acquisition may have been actually legal. He wasn't in command and neither was Yu. At some point, he became as much a prisoner as any one else, as the Masadans had the weapons and were responsible for security. And as soon as he could no longer hide behind the orders, he did what he could to stop the Masadans.

He was a prisoner of war, the war between Masada and Grayson; being a mercenary does not mean he could come and go as he pleased (the Russians are currently talking about executing mercenaries). Masada was not conquered until later and by then there might have been war between Manticore and Haven.

I believe that he was released as part of the agreement to testify against the atrocities. It was only safe for him to return because he was not from a Legislaturalist family; I believe that is why Yu could not return, although he also lost a bigger ship.
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Re: Theisman, and Chin
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:21 pm

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tlb wrote:I believe that he was released as part of the agreement to testify against the atrocities. It was only safe for him to return because he was not from a Legislaturalist family; I believe that is why Yu could not return, although he also lost a bigger ship.


And Yu didn't want to return either. He was far more privy to the shady details of the operation, so he became disillusioned with the Haven government.
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Re: Theisman, and Chin
Post by Louis R   » Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:29 pm

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Masada was conquered, by White Haven, immediately after 2nd Yeltsin. Which put them out of business as a sovereign star nation - they've been a Manty satrapy ever since. Which, in turn, terminated the state of war and [assuming Honorverse rules are similar to ours - and I think they're actually somewhat more civilised about things like this even than those of us who aren't Russians... let's be fair about this - you can't really blame Ivan in the street for every failing... than those of us who aren't denizens of the Kremlin] automatically leads to the repatriation of POWs who haven't committed actual criminal offenses.


tlb wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'd say that he was there as part of the technology transfer team, teaching the Masadans to operate the two ships they had acquired from the PRH. He wasn't in command, he was simply ensuring that the Masadans were learning. And then he got carried to the Yeltsin's Star system by those mad Masadans and thrust into the war that wasn't his.

That could have been a nice excuse, but for the fact that it was actually true. He didn't know the exact details of the payment for the two ships, but given that the PRH was getting something out of it (basing rights?), the acquisition may have been actually legal. He wasn't in command and neither was Yu. At some point, he became as much a prisoner as any one else, as the Masadans had the weapons and were responsible for security. And as soon as he could no longer hide behind the orders, he did what he could to stop the Masadans.

He was a prisoner of war, the war between Masada and Grayson; being a mercenary does not mean he could come and go as he pleased (the Russians are currently talking about executing mercenaries). Masada was not conquered until later and by then there might have been war between Manticore and Haven.

I believe that he was released as part of the agreement to testify against the atrocities. It was only safe for him to return because he was not from a Legislaturalist family; I believe that is why Yu could not return, although he also lost a bigger ship.
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Re: Theisman, and Chin
Post by tlb   » Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:47 pm

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Louis R wrote:Masada was conquered, by White Haven, immediately after 2nd Yeltsin. Which put them out of business as a sovereign star nation - they've been a Manty satrapy ever since. Which, in turn, terminated the state of war and [assuming Honorverse rules are similar to ours - and I think they're actually somewhat more civilised about things like this even than those of us who aren't Russians... let's be fair about this - you can't really blame Ivan in the street for every failing... than those of us who aren't denizens of the Kremlin] automatically leads to the repatriation of POWs who haven't committed actual criminal offenses.

However they are Haven naval personnel and Manticore is now at war with Haven by the time Masada is conquered, which was the timing I mentioned. But they were returned (with the exception of Yu), by agreement over the testimony against the way crimes by Masada.

Technically, I do not believe Masada is a "satrapy", because there is no imposed government on the ground; I think the control forces are all in orbital stations.

PS: I do not blame the average Russian, just the leaders in the Kremlin. I had been planning to visit Saint Petersburg before the mess started, but may only see it in music videos by Otava Yo now.
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Re: Theisman, and Chin
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:02 pm

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tlb wrote:However they are Haven naval personnel and Manticore is now at war with Haven by the time Masada is conquered, which was the timing I mentioned. But they were returned (with the exception of Yu), by agreement over the testimony against the way crimes by Masada.

Nope. White Haven has a career "including the freshly accomplished conquest of the Endicott System" in chapter 35 of Honor of the Queen -- before Honor even leaves the Yeltsin system for the first time after her death ride against Saladin/Thunder of God. Heck, White Haven's forces picked up Captain Alfredo Yu in Endicott -- and having requested asylum from the Crown is being returned to Manticore on Honor's ship.


So that's around the middle of 1903. Haven doesn't kick off the war by attacking Manticoran allies and holdings until early 1905. (The disastrous opening battles being part of the impetus for Robert Pierre to seize control in May) And Manticore doesn't actually declare war until at least the middle of 1905 - sometime after that coup; and after Young's court martial.

And we know Theisman was returned well before that because he was present at one of the pre-war provocations -- the grav-wave intercept of the Manticoran convoy carrying Anton, his young daughter Helen, and his wife Captain Helen Zilwicki.


Seems to me that he must have been returned not long after being called to testify in Grayson's trials of the Masadan personnel of Blackbird base. And that that point, while the diplomatic relations between Manticore and Haven had gotten even frostier than they'd been after Basilisk, there definitely was NOT a state of war between then when Masada was conquered or when Theisman was returned.
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Re: Theisman, and Chin
Post by tlb   » Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:31 pm

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tlb wrote:However they are Haven naval personnel and Manticore is now at war with Haven by the time Masada is conquered, which was the timing I mentioned. But they were returned (with the exception of Yu), by agreement over the testimony against the way crimes by Masada.

Jonathan_S wrote:Nope. White Haven has a career "including the freshly accomplished conquest of the Endicott System" in chapter 35 of Honor of the Queen -- before Honor even leaves the Yeltsin system for the first time after her death ride against Saladin/Thunder of God. Heck, White Haven's forces picked up Captain Alfredo Yu in Endicott -- and having requested asylum from the Crown is being returned to Manticore on Honor's ship.

My bad, I misunderstood the reference to 2nd Yeltsin by Louis R and confused it with 3rd Yeltsin. I should have remembered the involvement in the action with Captain Helen Zilwicki and I should have checked the timeline, when I was uncertain about the order of things. So I was completely wromg about the status of the Havenite personnel loaned to Masada.
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Re: Theisman, and Chin
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:22 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Nope. White Haven has a career "including the freshly accomplished conquest of the Endicott System" in chapter 35 of Honor of the Queen -- before Honor even leaves the Yeltsin system for the first time after her death ride against Saladin/Thunder of God. Heck, White Haven's forces picked up Captain Alfredo Yu in Endicott -- and having requested asylum from the Crown is being returned to Manticore on Honor's ship.


Another evidence is the "Hamish you're so easy" scene with Caparelli in SVW, when White Haven is trying to convince him to give Honor a ship, and Caparelli says that and says "we gave her Nike last week." That means White Haven was in Manticore before Honor got Nike and then shipped out to Hancock Station. It was the same scene that made Nike Sarnow's flagship and Honor his flag captain.

At the end of HotQ, White Haven was leading BatCruRon 17, aboard HMS Reliant. That was overkill firepower to conquer the Endicott system. Any RMN ship that arrived there and said "you're conquered" had the necessary force to make it stick. Landing marines to enforce that on the Elders and to free women from oppression is a whole other story and we know that took years -- in fact, we haven't heard that that is done. But you don't need an admiral for that, you need a general.
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Re: Theisman, and Chin
Post by Garth 2   » Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:12 am

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Mycall4me wrote:So I'm rereading my Honor Harrington series (again) and I'm on "The Honor Of The Queen" and I'm wondering one thing. How did Thomas Theisman get back to Haven after being captured by Honor's ships? By the same token in "The Short Victorious War" Admiral Chin is also captured by Manticoran forces, yet she also apparently was repatriated into Haven's forces as well. Both Theisman and Chin have major parts in later books, but how, or why, were they allowed to get back into Haven's forces? There is mentioned at least once that there wasn't any prisoner exchanges (at least in the early part of the war) and yet they are both somehow back in Havenite service in later books.

I can almost see how Theisman might have managed to be released, especially if he received some sort of deal for being willing to testify against the Masadans, and especially seeing as how hostilities have yet to openly break out between Manticore and Haven. But I can't see any way for Admiral Chin to have somehow gotten back to Haven, especially after having played such a major part in the sneak attack on Hancock base.

So what's the deal? Can anyone give me a reasonable explanation for their being able to return to Havenite service in later books after having both been captured in early books? Somehow, I find it hard to believe that the Mad Wizard Weber would have made some hand waving sleight of hand and have both Theisman, and Chin just "happen" to be able to be captured in one book, and then somehow be able to "reappear" in later books. Ideas? Anyone?

BTW, this wasn't the first time that I've wondered about this, at the time, I just happily ignored it all and kept on with my reading. That was before I had access to the forum as a registered member and being allowed to start a new thread that will hopefully give me some insight into how this could have come about. :D


Theisman -
At the time of HoftQ, Theisman had voluntary emigrated to Endicott (Masada) and taken local citizenship.
In exchange for his testimony (involving the rape and torture of captured Manticore Personal, in violation of the Debanum <spelling> Accords) after the battle of Blackbird (after a default state of war between Masada and the SKM existed) the Grayson prosecution agreed not to enquiry as to why Theisman had emigrated.
Presumably, with the end of the Protectorate of Grayson and Masada war with the occupation by the SKM (after White Haven invasion) of Endicott, he was repatriated to his "home" star system where he then walked into the PRH embassy (which the SKM wouldn't have targeted) and sought "asylum". Where he was then returned home to the PRH (with Captain Yu to blame for the failure of operation Jericho, he was presumably allowed to "re-emigrate" into the PRH and the PRN at his previous rank).

Chin -
This one is a bit harder to rationalise away, given that it is explicitly stated that Chin gave the order to surrender (and therefore was presumably captured) at the Battle of Hancock how she then got back to the PRH has not been provided in text.
My only guess is that she was used as a diplomatic courier to the PRH as evidence that the PRHs attack force had been defeated (given the shorter travelling time via the junction for the SKM) as Harris at his Birthday party is thinking about the defeat at Hancock but had not yet heard back from Amos Parnell regarding the Grayson offensive.
Given that Admiral Rollins would have been blamed by the PRH (or depending on the timing, Committee for Public Safety) for the disaster at the Battle of Hancock, Chin would have been reassigned to a "backwater" posting as "punishment" (given that the PRH/SKM had not agreed "terms of parole" there is no reason they couldn't reassign her).
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Re: Theisman, and Chin
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:25 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
At the end of HotQ, White Haven was leading BatCruRon 17, aboard HMS Reliant. That was overkill firepower to conquer the Endicott system. Any RMN ship that arrived there and said "you're conquered" had the necessary force to make it stick. Landing marines to enforce that on the Elders and to free women from oppression is a whole other story and we know that took years -- in fact, we haven't heard that that is done. But you don't need an admiral for that, you need a general.


Masada was having "problems" with women even as late as the time of the Yawata Strike (don't know what the Graysons called it. "Black bird strike?") IIRC, in Obligated Service, the female OOD of a Grayson destroyer doesn't get any response when she contacts the Masada station asking for docking instructions.
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Re: Theisman, and Chin
Post by tlb   » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:52 pm

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Louis R wrote:As already mentioned, Tom Theisman wasn't - officially - acting as a Peep when he was captured [he'd been sold to Masada along with his ship], so when he decided he wanted to go home after he was let off the hook, no one could stop him. Come to think of it, I'm not sure there was a hook for him to be on in the first place. The state of war between Masada and Yeltsin was real enough that he had done nothing that could justify piracy charges, so - again, officially - at worst he was a mercenary whose employer had just gone rather permanently out of business. Something that is no more illegal in the Honorverse than it was in early-modern Europe.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'd say that he was there as part of the technology transfer team, teaching the Masadans to operate the two ships they had acquired from the PRH. He wasn't in command, he was simply ensuring that the Masadans were learning. And then he got carried to the Yeltsin's Star system by those mad Masadans and thrust into the war that wasn't his.

That could have been a nice excuse, but for the fact that it was actually true. He didn't know the exact details of the payment for the two ships, but given that the PRH was getting something out of it (basing rights?), the acquisition may have been actually legal. He wasn't in command and neither was Yu. At some point, he became as much a prisoner as any one else, as the Masadans had the weapons and were responsible for security. And as soon as he could no longer hide behind the orders, he did what he could to stop the Masadans.

I will try this again after carefully checking the book; chapter 23 has this:
Theisman snarled in triumph, yet under his snarl was the bitter knowledge that his triumph would be brief. He could finish the cruiser with another salvo, but he’d already crippled her. The Captain would finish her off; his job was to damage as many Manticorans as he could before Thunder came back.
“Take the destroyer!” he barked.
“Aye, Sir!”
Principality slewed to starboard, presenting her reloaded port broadside to Troubadour, but the Manticoran destroyer saw her coming, and her skipper knew his business. Theisman’s entire body tensed as the Manticoran fired a laser broadside three times as heavy as his own into him, then snapped up to present the belly of his wedge before the missiles could reach him. Principality heaved in agony, and the plot flickered. Two of his birds popped up, fighting for a look-down shot through Troubadour’s upper sidewall, but her point defense picked them off, and Theisman swore as the Manticoran rolled back down with viperish speed to bring her lasers to bear once more.
But Principality was rolling, too, and her starboard broadside fired before Troubadour had completed her maneuver. His ship bucked again as energy blasted deep into her hull, but this time one of his laser heads got through. There was no way to tell how much damage it had done—there wasn’t enough time to tell what his damage was!—but he knew he’d hurt her.
“Come to oh-niner-three three-five-niner!”
Principality dived towards the moon, twisting to present the top of her own wedge to Troubadour while her surviving missile crews fought to reload. The single laser in her port broadside picked off a Grayson LAC that never even saw her, and then she shuddered as a Grayson light cruiser put a laser into her forward impellers. Her acceleration dropped and her wedge faltered, but the ready lights glowed on the four surviving tubes of her port broadside, and Theisman sent her rolling madly back to bring them to bear on the Grayson.
He never made it. Fearless came screaming back on a reciprocal of her original course, and a hurricane of energy fire ripped through Principality’s sidewall as if it hadn’t existed.
“Sidewall down!” Hillyard shouted. “We’ve lost everything in the port broadside!” The exec cursed. “Emergency reactor shutdown, Skip!”
Principality went to emergency power, and Theisman’s face relaxed. His ship was done, but she’d accomplished more than Franks’ entire task force, and there was no point throwing away those of her people who still survived.
“Strike the wedge,” he said quietly.
Theisman was in complete control of Principality throughout the book until he surrendered at this point. In that capacity he fired at both Fearless and Troubadour. He did nothing to stop the Masadans at Blackbird, but there was nothing that he could do (except testify after the surrender).
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