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Re: ?
Post by Theemile   » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:25 am

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cthia wrote:
Disclaimer: I really need to reread UH. I wasn't aware that the freighter which dropped off the Bullets had done so with a two-week lead time. But even something is fishy about that. Freighters aren't allowed to sit around that long without being unloaded. And I can't imagine the equivalence of drug sniffing, bomb sniffing dogs aren't a norm in the HV. Especially during DEFCON 2. Bombs were able to sit that long without detection? In the HV? During DEFCON 2?


We spoke heavily about this at the time UH came out - a fusion bomb in the Honorverse is nothing more than a small jug of Hydrogen, a gravity generator, and some electronics. If customs really wanted to get technical and rip into every crate - you could easily disguise this as a number of things, like a small fusion generator.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:41 am

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cthia wrote:I certainly don't think there were many more than 10 employed at Beowulf. But, wouldn't that be the minimum number needed to cover their area of concern? Which means that they would have been emplaced near their maximum effective range.

When I say close, I mean relatively close considering their maximum range. "Practically" close for MAlign consumption. Pun intended. If they would have been deployed at their maximum effective range, that would have been a lot of real estate to cover, having only a general idea of their location. If they had only a "general" idea, then I have a problem.

Mycroft represents lots of trade secrets housed in a single platform that could fall into enemy hands. And the GA knows there is a silent drive system out there. They also know they did the same thing to the Peeps, and they should have known that a lot of what made that possible was that the Peep platforms were in close proximity to each other, and that their ships would be the beacon. So, armed with all of this knowledge and the need for security, only someone very high up in the food chain would know the location of those platforms. And every one of those people would be found in the MBS. Whoever the rat bastard mole was on Beowulf certainly didn't know the exact coordinates. And as textev testifies that the logic is sound, he only knew a general location. So, for those same security reasons, how general an area would be known? I think too much so to find stealthy platforms that would be distributed at their maximum effective range, in just two weeks.

What, the MA gave the SB's carte blanche to execute a standard search pattern behind enemy lines? Could they risk that? I can't see them totally relying on test signals.

The Mycrofts are fairly new platforms, and remember, Beowulf wasn't made privy to the location of the FTL buoys emplaced in their system when the SL attacked. And they represent much older technology.

But okay, so they had some kind of a vague search area. But space is big. Huge. And these are humongous platforms searching an enemy's back yard. They couldn't have had free rein to just wander about - just shy of aimlessly. I also would love to think they'd have to be seeded in a 2-1 fashion to ensure success. Tester knows the RMN heavily seeded the area with a net advantage in armed drones to do what they did to the Peeps. Obviously, a single platform surviving would have been fatal to the MA's plans.

You'd also have to ask why a platform wasn't placed deep in the inner system, which was one of my initial questions. But that decision was probably political in nature, because the GA had to appear to remain neutral by staying out of the inner system?

So, the Bullets had two weeks. But two weeks shouldn't have been enough to tie down the location of every single platform which was only pulsing for four short beats very infrequently. And I suppose this would suggest that grav pulses aren't as directional as... lasers - which requires anyone trying to intercept their signal to be served up a heaping helping of providence by being smack dab between two platforms when they pulse. Another thing is I can't accept a need for the platforms to constantly break radio silence for a systems check but once when they are first deployed. After that, only a self-diagnostic program should be run. These things are highly classified. You don't keep sending out a series of "find me" pulses like a galaxy's pulsars.

Also, supposedly the Bullets were programmed to fire weapons when Mycroft goes active. What exactly constitutes "going active?" Full communication between platforms shouldn't be allowed during battle stations. Battle stations isn't the time for a system's test. But I do recall the Peeps and the SL always caught FTL chatter in the system. Still, the Bullets couldn't fire prematurely.

At any rate, textev placed emphasis on their size. They could all fit in one freighter, yes, but it is difficult to think the MA would risk more than one even if textev wouldn't have made that clear. However, that means that only one freighter would be responsible for kicking out at least a 2-1 number of these monstrous platforms all at once. Escape pods can be seen fleeing a warship like flies when abandoning ship, and they are much smaller. You may argue that that is during battle stations when you got an ever watchful eye on the enemy. True. But then, Beowulf should have been at high alert during that time. At least DEFCON 2. Which means even an air lorry full of kids would have been watched like a hawk.

Plus, why in the hell would the R-frickin-MN be caught with their pants down the same way they caught the Peeps, when they knew a great big ugly scorned belligerent stepped on angry prodded gorilla of a husband was present and loaded for bear. When a gorilla is loaded for bear, he's insane. There's gonna be trouble.

Not a single GA ship was towing a Mycroft platform for redundancy.

Disclaimer: I really need to reread UH. I wasn't aware that the freighter which dropped off the Bullets had done so with a two-week lead time. But even something is fishy about that. Freighters aren't allowed to sit around that long without being unloaded. And I can't imagine the equivalence of drug sniffing, bomb sniffing dogs aren't a norm in the HV. Especially during DEFCON 2. Bombs were able to sit that long without detection? In the HV? During DEFCON 2?

I don't think a single platform surviving would have been any more fatal to the MAlign's plans than what actually happened. As far as we know Mycroft should have a range restriction not unlike Keyhole II - so able to make an FTL fire control link to ACMs within about 5 light minutes (90 million km) of it.

If a single surviving platform was close enough to the SLN BCs for them to be in range then it would be out of FTL range of Beowulf's Skywatch as so unable to receive and relay the fire control settings to it's missiles. And if a single surviving platform was close enough to Skywatch to get the FTL fire control data upload then it'd be too far from the SLN BCs (which remember, barely cross the hyper limit) to have FTL fire control of the Apollo missiles. So they'd have still been in autonomous mode when they reached the BCs -- just like they were without the platforms at all.



As for platform separation you seem to be arguing for somewhat contradictory things ;) -- saying they're too close together, while also saying they were emplaced near their maximum effective range, but wanting redundant coverage (2-1)...

But they can't be placed with redundant coverage without being closer to each other so their coverage overlaps. :D

My estimated 10 platforms minimum to cover the inner system has those platforms at about their maximum effective range -- as far away as they can be without creating significant no coverage areas (aka dead zones) -- which, based on Keyhole II, I'm putting at about 7 LM (126 million km) apart; with each platform able to FTL control missiles out to about 5 LM (90 million km). With that minimum emplacement their locations are roughly equally spaced throughout the area inside the hyper limit -- because otherwise, again, you'd have dead zones -- which does means that once you find a few of them their spacing pattern would likely become pretty obvious.

With the minimum number of platforms, meaning they're nearly as far apart as they can be to maintain coverage, they can't be randomly placed without creating coverage dead zones. But if you accept having more platforms, closer together, then you can have enough redundancy to somewhat randomize individual platform placement without creating dead zones -- but you didn't want platforms closer together...




As for "going active", my impression was that was when the FTL traffic to the Mycroft platform greatly increased. As it would have to do in order to do to start sending targeting data to it's missiles. It's whole purpose is to receive and relay FTL fire control information and the relaying part of that inescapable requires it to start sending high bandwidth FTL signals to all the missiles it's about to order to launch. Unfortunately that communication is an inescapable part of their combat role.




And for the freighter dropped them off, it appears I had drastically underestimated how long the Silver Bullets would have been in system. I still don't see a firm date, but while searching just now to remind myself of her name (Star Galleon’s ) I found this disucssion I'd forgotten about.
Uncompromising Honor: pg.271/512 RTF edition wrote:Benjamin nodded. “Have your projections for in-system deployment changed?”
“Not significantly.” Daniel shook his head. “Given the volume we’ve projected for the Mycroft platforms’ locations, they should be fully deployed within twelve days.”
“Dwell time projections?”
“That’s actually a little better than our original estimates. Given the size of the final platform, we were able to build in deployable solar panels and a trickle charger for the plasma capacitors. They’ll be far enough out to limit what the panels can scoop up, but they should have enough power to hold the accumulators’ charge for at least eighty days before they fall behind the leakage rate and the capacitors drop below minimum operating levels. The numbers for Beowulf suggest it’ll be closer to ninety or even a hundred days, but eighty’s a safe minimum estimate.”

So 12 days from getting dropped off just to disperse across the system; and a total of about 3 months maximum from drop off until the attack has to happen.
However if Star Galleon made her schedule she'd have arrived at Beowulf around the start of December and we know the attack happened in the section of the final section of the book; marked "JANUARY 1923 POST DIASPORA". So it appeared they had between 4 - 8 weeks to disperse and sniff out the Mycroft platform locations.

As for the freighter hanging around; why would it need to?
Hyper in (where you're much further from any sensor than a ship would be during combat) and dump your Silver Bullets as you trundle in system to make your perfectly legitimate shipping stop, then leave as normal. The freighter isn't controlling the drones, their fully pre-programmed, so there's no need for it to hang around. And so you'd be dropping them when you're too far away to be under close visual or active radar observation; the kinds you'd need to detect dropping off containers while hundreds of millions of km from the planet.
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:54 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:But I think the decisive evidence that there were lots of Mycroft platforms and lots of Silver Bullets is from the SLN Task Force 790's point of view:
[cut]
Still the apparent use of Silver Bullet and Mycroft as collective nouns for the entire constellation of drones or entire deployment of platforms does make it harder to pick up on the fact that it wasn't one drone vs one platform.


That makes far more sense. Yes, multiple Mycroft platforms and multiple SBs. When I read UH, I thought it was a handful, but the calculations in the thread would suggest it's actually more than a dozen of each.

Of course, that poses a different problem now. Two actually.

First, that the more SBs there were, the bigger the chance of accidental detection. Especially if they're deploying solar panels, which by definition are large areas to collect sunlight. They can't be 100% effective, so they'll reflect some light back. More importantly, their large and flat surface areas would be very distinctive signals in radar pulses, if aimed just right. I'm not saying that the defenders would know how to aim, but if you have two dozen SBs around and thousands of ships going by in the system, chance says there may be accidental detections.

Second, not all SBs may have found a target, so they wouldn't have known that the attack was happening. Which in turn means some might have survived the attack and were still around, because they didn't see it happening. Now, if I were a paranoid Onion member, I'd make them self-destruct on a signal. The same nuke activation signal on the Beowulf habitat stations may have also enabled the countdown timer for their own destruction. However, that signal may not have been powerful enough to reach all platforms.

Plus, there's Murphy (no, not the emperor). There's always a chance one of them would break down and thus be recovered. Stealth technology and spider drive and all.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:35 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:But I think the decisive evidence that there were lots of Mycroft platforms and lots of Silver Bullets is from the SLN Task Force 790's point of view:
[cut]
Still the apparent use of Silver Bullet and Mycroft as collective nouns for the entire constellation of drones or entire deployment of platforms does make it harder to pick up on the fact that it wasn't one drone vs one platform.


That makes far more sense. Yes, multiple Mycroft platforms and multiple SBs. When I read UH, I thought it was a handful, but the calculations in the thread would suggest it's actually more than a dozen of each.

Of course, that poses a different problem now. Two actually.

First, that the more SBs there were, the bigger the chance of accidental detection. Especially if they're deploying solar panels, which by definition are large areas to collect sunlight.[1] They can't be 100% effective, so they'll reflect some light back. More importantly, their large and flat surface areas would be very distinctive signals in radar pulses, if aimed just right. I'm not saying that the defenders would know how to aim, but if you have two dozen SBs around and thousands of ships going by in the system, chance says there may be accidental detections.

Second, not all SBs may have found a target,[2] so they wouldn't have known that the attack was happening. Which in turn means some might have survived the attack and were still around, because they didn't see it happening. Now, if I were a paranoid Onion member, I'd make them self-destruct on a signal. The same nuke activation signal on the Beowulf habitat stations may have also enabled the countdown timer for their own destruction. However, that signal may not have been powerful enough to reach all platforms.

Plus, there's Murphy (no, not the emperor). There's always a chance one of them would break down and thus be recovered. Stealth technology and spider drive and all.


[1] It brings to mind our own low orbit geosynchronous satellites with those bulking solar arrays. And the Bullets were 90% the size of a LAC! As listed in the wiki.

And because of ...

[2] I stated that the MA would want to insert them into the system with a 2-1 advantage over the Mycroft platforms to insure a higher success rate. Which also suggests that not only was their general location known, but the number of platforms was obviously known as well. And the fact that they may outnumber the Mycroft platforms would also increase the chance for detection.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:34 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:I don't think a single platform surviving would have been any more fatal to the MAlign's plans than what actually happened. As far as we know Mycroft should have a range restriction not unlike Keyhole II - so able to make an FTL fire control link to ACMs within about 5 light minutes (90 million km) of it.

If a single surviving platform was close enough to the SLN BCs for them to be in range then it would be out of FTL range of Beowulf's Skywatch as so unable to receive and relay the fire control settings to it's missiles. And if a single surviving platform was close enough to Skywatch to get the FTL fire control data upload then it'd be too far from the SLN BCs (which remember, barely cross the hyper limit) to have FTL fire control of the Apollo missiles. So they'd have still been in autonomous mode when they reached the BCs -- just like they were without the platforms at all.

??? Why would Skywatch even be needed? Mycroft should operate completely independently from Skywatch, shouldn't it?



Jonathan_S wrote:As for platform separation you seem to be arguing for somewhat contradictory things ;) -- saying they're too close together, while also saying they were emplaced near their maximum effective range, but wanting redundant coverage (2-1)...

But they can't be placed with redundant coverage without being closer to each other so their coverage overlaps.

You misunderstood me. I was suggesting the Bullets would be seeded at a 2-1 advantage in overkill, to ensure successful kills. I don't know how the MA would know the range of the system. That is classified as well. At any rate, I was suggesting that they SHOULD have been deployed at their maximum effective range, but that it was difficult to accept that they were. That would have been a whole lot of real estate for a few dozen objects 90% the size of LACs to be searching for prey undetected for weeks.

Jonathan_S wrote:My estimated 10 platforms minimum to cover the inner system has those platforms at about their maximum effective range -- as far away as they can be without creating significant no coverage areas (aka dead zones) -- which, based on Keyhole II, I'm putting at about 7 LM (126 million km) apart; with each platform able to FTL control missiles out to about 5 LM (90 million km). With that minimum emplacement their locations are roughly equally spaced throughout the area inside the hyper limit -- because otherwise, again, you'd have dead zones -- which does means that once you find a few of them their spacing pattern would likely become pretty obvious.

With the minimum number of platforms, meaning they're nearly as far apart as they can be to maintain coverage, they can't be randomly placed without creating coverage dead zones. But if you accept having more platforms, closer together, then you can have enough redundancy to somewhat randomize individual platform placement without creating dead zones -- but you didn't want platforms closer together...

It isn't that I didn't want them closer together, but that I didn't think there were enough of them to overlap in coverage. Nor do I think they should have been operating closer together because of security. Beowulf is an important ally, but it is not the MBS. There were political limitations to deployment which would have translated into tactical limitations as well. I'm simply saying that maximum deployment should have been a hell of a lot of real estate to cover.

Jonathan_S wrote:As for "going active", my impression was that was when the FTL traffic to the Mycroft platform greatly increased. As it would have to do in order to do to start sending targeting data to it's missiles. It's whole purpose is to receive and relay FTL fire control information and the relaying part of that inescapable requires it to start sending high bandwidth FTL signals to all the missiles it's about to order to launch. Unfortunately that communication is an inescapable part of their combat role.

Okay, agreed.

Jonathan_S wrote:And for the freighter dropped them off, it appears I had drastically underestimated how long the Silver Bullets would have been in system. I still don't see a firm date, but while searching just now to remind myself of her name (Star Galleon’s ) I found this disucssion I'd forgotten about.
Uncompromising Honor: pg.271/512 RTF edition wrote:Benjamin nodded. “Have your projections for in-system deployment changed?”
“Not significantly.” Daniel shook his head. “Given the volume we’ve projected for the Mycroft platforms’ locations, they should be fully deployed within twelve days.”
“Dwell time projections?”
“That’s actually a little better than our original estimates. Given the size of the final platform, we were able to build in deployable solar panels and a trickle charger for the plasma capacitors. They’ll be far enough out to limit what the panels can scoop up, but they should have enough power to hold the accumulators’ charge for at least eighty days before they fall behind the leakage rate and the capacitors drop below minimum operating levels. The numbers for Beowulf suggest it’ll be closer to ninety or even a hundred days, but eighty’s a safe minimum estimate.”


How could the MA have a projected volume of placement for the Mycroft platforms when information about their range would be highly classified as well.

Jonathan_S wrote:So 12 days from getting dropped off just to disperse across the system; and a total of about 3 months maximum from drop off until the attack has to happen.
However if Star Galleon made her schedule she'd have arrived at Beowulf around the start of December and we know the attack happened in the section of the final section of the book; marked "JANUARY 1923 POST DIASPORA". So it appeared they had between 4 - 8 weeks to disperse and sniff out the Mycroft platform locations.

As for the freighter hanging around; why would it need to?
Hyper in (where you're much further from any sensor than a ship would be during combat) and dump your Silver Bullets as you trundle in system to make your perfectly legitimate shipping stop, then leave as normal. The freighter isn't controlling the drones, their fully pre-programmed, so there's no need for it to hang around. And so you'd be dropping them when you're too far away to be under close visual or active radar observation; the kinds you'd need to detect dropping off containers while hundreds of millions of km from the planet.

Agreed. The freighters wouldn't hang around. Why would they? Time is money with those behemoths. Besides, they are going to want to get the hell out of dodge if they are in on it. But that is my point. They would have been unloaded immediately. And here is where I'd think "the jig is up." Again, why isn't bomb sniffing technology utilized in the HV? And, there should have been a huge discrepancy in the freighter's unloaded mass compared to her hyper signal. We discussed that in another thread. A lot of mass should have been unaccounted for at the docks.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:47 pm

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Snipped out the parts I think we're agreeing on, or where you corrected my misunderstanding (because this was getting quite long)
cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I don't think a single platform surviving would have been any more fatal to the MAlign's plans than what actually happened. As far as we know Mycroft should have a range restriction not unlike Keyhole II - so able to make an FTL fire control link to ACMs within about 5 light minutes (90 million km) of it.

If a single surviving platform was close enough to the SLN BCs for them to be in range then it would be out of FTL range of Beowulf's Skywatch as so unable to receive and relay the fire control settings to it's missiles. And if a single surviving platform was close enough to Skywatch to get the FTL fire control data upload then it'd be too far from the SLN BCs (which remember, barely cross the hyper limit) to have FTL fire control of the Apollo missiles. So they'd have still been in autonomous mode when they reached the BCs -- just like they were without the platforms at all.

??? Why would Skywatch even be needed? Mycroft should operate completely independently from Skywatch, shouldn't it?
A Mycroft platform is an unmanned fire control relay system. You need forts or whatever with your tactical department(s) to originate the targeting information to get relayed out to the Apollo missiles -- which I guess could also be called part of Mycroft. But in Beowulf whether or not it was now called part of Mycroft the text seems to indicate that their (preexisting) Sky Watch (Beowulf's system defense command) had responsibility for handling that targeting
UH wrote:“What’s the status on Mycroft?”
“Uploading the targeting queue now, Sir. Sky Watch estimates eleven minutes to complete the uploads to the master platforms and confirm receipt.”


cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:And for the freighter dropped them off, it appears I had drastically underestimated how long the Silver Bullets would have been in system. I still don't see a firm date, but while searching just now to remind myself of her name (Star Galleon’s ) I found this disucssion I'd forgotten about.
>>>>>
Benjamin nodded. “Have your projections for in-system deployment changed?”
“Not significantly.” Daniel shook his head. “Given the volume we’ve projected for the Mycroft platforms’ locations, they should be fully deployed within twelve days.”
“Dwell time projections?”
“That’s actually a little better than our original estimates. Given the size of the final platform, we were able to build in deployable solar panels and a trickle charger for the plasma capacitors. They’ll be far enough out to limit what the panels can scoop up, but they should have enough power to hold the accumulators’ charge for at least eighty days before they fall behind the leakage rate and the capacitors drop below minimum operating levels. The numbers for Beowulf suggest it’ll be closer to ninety or even a hundred days, but eighty’s a safe minimum estimate.”
<<<<<<<


How could the MA have a projected volume of placement for the Mycroft platforms when information about their range would be highly classified as well.
I don't think it's much of a stretch the Mycroft platforms would be deployed to cover the entirety of the area inside the hyper limit. That's where all your really valuable assets are, plus there's very little point to trying to systematically cover much beyond that.

Beyond the hyper limit you'd need ludicrous density of missiles to get fire onto target before the hostiles simply hypered away to evade the missiles because the volume to cover is literally going up exponentially (with the radius cubed) yet to prevent an enemy from simply evading your fire by popping into hyper you need missiles to launch from within 4 minutes flight time - which means from with 21 million km (despite being able to control missiles out to around 90 million); and even then at 4 minutes flight anything smaller than an SD could likely hyper away.

Though I do expect any major installations out in the asteroid belt or near one of the gas giants would have it's own protection - but the hyper limit of even a gas giant is so small you don't need Mycroft relays, simply Keyhole II equipped forts.

So easy enough to guess the volume needed to search; everything within the hyper limit.

cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:So 12 days from getting dropped off just to disperse across the system; and a total of about 3 months maximum from drop off until the attack has to happen.
However if Star Galleon made her schedule she'd have arrived at Beowulf around the start of December and we know the attack happened in the section of the final section of the book; marked "JANUARY 1923 POST DIASPORA". So it appeared they had between 4 - 8 weeks to disperse and sniff out the Mycroft platform locations.

As for the freighter hanging around; why would it need to?
Hyper in (where you're much further from any sensor than a ship would be during combat) and dump your Silver Bullets as you trundle in system to make your perfectly legitimate shipping stop, then leave as normal. The freighter isn't controlling the drones, their fully pre-programmed, so there's no need for it to hang around. And so you'd be dropping them when you're too far away to be under close visual or active radar observation; the kinds you'd need to detect dropping off containers while hundreds of millions of km from the planet.

Agreed. The freighters wouldn't hang around. Why would they? Time is money with those behemoths. Besides, they are going to want to get the hell out of dodge if they are in on it. But that is my point. They would have been unloaded immediately. And here is where I'd think "the jig is up." Again, why isn't bomb sniffing technology utilized in the HV? And, there should have been a huge discrepancy in the freighter's unloaded mass compared to her hyper signal. We discussed that in another thread. A lot of mass should have been unaccounted for at the docks.

It's unlikely for a freighter to offload and reload everything at a single stop; so Beowulf wouldn't necessarily know the mass of the containers that stayed aboard because they were destined for other systems. And bomb sniffing technology would be ineffective because the Silver Bullets aren't aboard by the time you reach customs or freight station. It'll take your average freighter something like at least 7.5 - 8 hours from emergence to docking at your typically placed inhabited planet.

(We've seen military crews overshoot their hyper exit by 1.3 light minutes, so figure a freighter will aim for about 4 LM beyond the hyper limit to reduce risk of "bouncing". The point clostest to the planet that's still 4 LM beyond the hyper limits would put them about 270 million km from that planet [actually calculated for Manticore, as I don't think we've got the orbital and hyperlimit data for Beowulf]. At 150 gee accel; 80% of full, a zero zero intercept across 270 million km is a hair over 7.5 hours)


As for detecting the mass loss from dropping the pods, I don't think hyper emergence signal is that precise. Yes, it show the difference between a battlecruiser and a super dreadnaught (or freighter) but that's a 7 fold difference in mass. Even if the Silver Bullets masses as much as a LAC, dropping a dozen of them is still only 270,000 tons -- which sounds like a lot but it's less than 4% the mass of a 7.5 mton freighter. There's likely way more than 4% margin of error in interpreting the signal strengths of hyper emergence. (+/- 15% error bars wouldn't surprise me)

Remember that the emergence signal strength seems directly related to the energy loss from dropping through the hyper wall; and that energy is a based on mass * velocity^2. So minor measurement errors in post transition velocity will result is relatively large errors in mass estimation. (Especially as your sensors can only see the velocity after the 92% reduction from cracking the Alpha wall, so your measurement errors are magnified even before you apply the squaring effect)
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:45 pm

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cthia wrote:[1] It brings to mind our own low orbit geosynchronous satellites with those bulking solar arrays. And the Bullets were 90% the size of a LAC! As listed in the wiki.


We have no such thing. They're either low orbit or they're geosynchronous. The geosynchronous orbit is the one between medium and high orbits. A craft at low orbit and stationary over a given longitude of the planet must be actively maintaining orbit with massive thrusters to counteract gravity. If it didn't, it would just fall to the ground (not burn up on reentry because by definition it doesn't have any vertical velocity relative to the ground). That's uneconomical, so we don't have them.

However, your point is well taken. Quod vide Starlink.

[2] I stated that the MA would want to insert them into the system with a 2-1 advantage over the Mycroft platforms to insure a higher success rate. Which also suggests that not only was their general location known, but the number of platforms was obviously known as well. And the fact that they may outnumber the Mycroft platforms would also increase the chance for detection.


Not necessarily. You can make educated guesses, but be mindful of GIGO.

If you roughly know what the range of the FTL communicator is, you can calculate the minimum effective constellation and how far one unit would be apart from another, on average. You just need to find two or three to know where every other unit will be in the system, roughly speaking.

And to find one you define a volume where there must be at least one, send all your SBs there so they triangulate the position of that one, then close in and lock it. You can now repeat this process again, excluding the zone of responsibility of that Mycroft unit. With two units, you have one of two plans possible for the entire system; find a third to exclude one of the two and you've got the entire plan.

This all rests on the assumption of how many Mycroft units there will be per unit of volume. If the MAlign strategists guessed too low, the SBs will be spending a lot of time trying to find the next unit, while they widen their search area. If they instead guessed too high, then they will miss some units that were there but hadn't been accounted for in the plan.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:33 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:[1] It brings to mind our own low orbit geosynchronous satellites with those bulking solar arrays. And the Bullets were 90% the size of a LAC! As listed in the wiki.


We have no such thing. They're either low orbit or they're geosynchronous. The geosynchronous orbit is the one between medium and high orbits. A craft at low orbit and stationary over a given longitude of the planet must be actively maintaining orbit with massive thrusters to counteract gravity. If it didn't, it would just fall to the ground (not burn up on reentry because by definition it doesn't have any vertical velocity relative to the ground). That's uneconomical, so we don't have them.

However, your point is well taken. Quod vide Starlink.

[2] I stated that the MA would want to insert them into the system with a 2-1 advantage over the Mycroft platforms to insure a higher success rate. Which also suggests that not only was their general location known, but the number of platforms was obviously known as well. And the fact that they may outnumber the Mycroft platforms would also increase the chance for detection.


Not necessarily. You can make educated guesses, but be mindful of GIGO.

If you roughly know what the range of the FTL communicator is, you can calculate the minimum effective constellation and how far one unit would be apart from another, on average. You just need to find two or three to know where every other unit will be in the system, roughly speaking.

And to find one you define a volume where there must be at least one, send all your SBs there so they triangulate the position of that one, then close in and lock it. You can now repeat this process again, excluding the zone of responsibility of that Mycroft unit. With two units, you have one of two plans possible for the entire system; find a third to exclude one of the two and you've got the entire plan.

This all rests on the assumption of how many Mycroft units there will be per unit of volume. If the MAlign strategists guessed too low, the SBs will be spending a lot of time trying to find the next unit, while they widen their search area. If they instead guessed too high, then they will miss some units that were there but hadn't been accounted for in the plan.

My apologies about the satellites. It was an editing snafu. It should have read low orbit AND geosynchronous sats. I didn't want to leave out either class of satellite. I was responding to your post regarding the reflection of sunlight on the solar panels. And it made me think of these satellites. The low orbit satellites can be seen with the naked eye from earth because of the solar panels. As well as the ISS which oftentimes appears to be a small moon. My post was rather long and I edited it. When editing super long posts I make mistakes on context, grammar, tenses, etc. I often get caught editing when someone else posts if you've noticed. Jonathan caught me a few clicks upstream.

At any rate, I had a long drawn out post about the size of our satellites and the ISS compared to the massive size of the Silver Bullets and how bright the Silver Bullets must glow in comparison. The ISS is only 50 tons. Anyway, the post was too long.

And the size of the Mycroft platforms... :o

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by kzt   » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:11 am

kzt
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cthia wrote:And the size of the Mycroft platforms... :o

Without a fusion reactor it was the size of a an old-school destroyer. Say 100,000 tons and 400 meters long.

Just the tiniest bit bigger than the ISS.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:31 am

cthia
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kzt wrote:
cthia wrote:And the size of the Mycroft platforms... :o

Without a fusion reactor it was the size of a an old-school destroyer. Say 100,000 tons and 400 meters long.

Just the tiniest bit bigger than the ISS.

LMAO. Yes, just a tiny bit bigger. It makes me wonder about the fire control of the Model-T warships in King Roger's time and what the crew wished they had. How many missiles could those old Model T-s control at a time? 4? LOL

Heck, was the range of those missiles even greater than energy weapons at the time? And talk about the difference between the CIC of our very own old battleships and now. They used stick pointers and actual wooden figures to simulate the location of allied and enemy warships. Stick Pointers and toys as part of the main components of CIC aboard the USS Battleship North Carolina. :o

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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