Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests

Wormhole Assault: MA Style

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by kzt   » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:39 am

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10657
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

The control nodes are so close and the ships are moving so slowly that decoys are pointless. They are not depending on grav signatures. They have optical, thermal and multi-frequency radar and with a less than hundred ms command loop. The aiming systems are just not going to be impressed.
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:37 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13177
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

cthia wrote:This is an Eighth Fleet killer! Now, Eighth Fleet may never leave the system since it is now Home Fleet. But if it can be pulled out of position with a massive attack on Trevor's Star then the door can be shut behind them.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, it isn't. Eighth Fleet or any other fleet is not going to transit a wormhole that is held by hostiles. Normal WH communication will let all the other termini know within five minutes of the engagement starting that something is happening. Even the SLN was smart enough to send destroyers first to scout the other side of the wormhole before beginning to transit, during the Battle of Ajay-Prime. They just weren't smart enough to keep a two-way communication in the process...


You keep saying that, and I agree. But I'm not talking about a hostile WH, as far as the GA is concerned. The destruction of 8th Fleet is what makes it hostile, but it isn't hostile beforehand, as far as the GA is concerned.

Again, the trigger won't be pulled until 8th Fleet is in its crosshairs. Either transiting to or from Trevor's Star. Either returning from exercises or attempting to assist. 8th Fleet definitely may attempt transit into a hostile system to assist. It won't know the WH has a Spider in its nest. And I assume any such nest will have a clear shot at all ships waiting to transit. Even if they are not stacked for a mass transit. And if they are stacked for a mass transit, well, thank you providence.

A massive attack on Trevor's Star can sortie 8th Fleet. Albeit, as I already said, they can be caught while returning from exercises.

Also, an LD in a nest isn't going to be concerned with sniping. It is going to want to make full use of its element of surprise. This is going to be a simultaneous coordinated attack with all batteries firing.

Anticipating a specific rebuttal about the number of energy weapons on an LD, recall I did say a tricked-out LD specifically built to lay eggs in nests. There are many kinds of Spiders.

You also keep pointing out the fate of the LD and supporting your reasoning quite well. But that is a small consolation prize for all of the floating debris that was once 8th Fleet. Plus, an LD destroyed in such a nest probably won't leave behind any wreckage. It will be destroyed by trajectories which carries it into the turbulence.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:05 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1858
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

cthia wrote:Again, the trigger won't be pulled until 8th Fleet is in its crosshairs. Either transiting to or from Trevor's Star. Either returning from exercises or attempting to assist. 8th Fleet definitely may attempt transit into a hostile system to assist. It won't know the WH has a Spider in its nest. And I assume any such nest will have a clear shot at all ships waiting to transit. Even if they are not stacked for a mass transit. And if they are stacked for a mass transit, well, thank you providence.


There won't be a mass transit unless it's under battle conditions. If it is under battle conditions -- a Case Zulu --, they'll only transit if the other side is known to be safe, meaning there are already dozens of ships with wedges surrounding the exit lanes, thus in very close proximity to any attacker, plus the forts, all blasting on active scans. Then remember that the maximum transit mass does not allow for the entire fleet to transit. Only ~25 SD(P)s can do that, which means the fleet's CO will have sent 25-35 SD(P)s first, in regular (expedited) transit. So in those "dozens of ships," you must account for 2 or 3 dozen being SD(P)s at action stations.

Under non-battle conditions, there'll never be more than a handful of ships that can be attacked at any point: all the rest will have brought their wedges up and will be under power. So even if the attacker brought plenty of graser torpedoes to have multiple lines of attack, the geometry may simply not match. There's a high risk of detection and a low probability of success in this scenario. Plus, if it's not under battle conditions, the timing isn't pre-determined: the fleet could be delayed hours for any reason, while for every minute that passes the chances of random detection of the attacker increase. In fact, the total transit time is very high: 60 SD(P)s would take over 3 hours to transit by themselves, and you have to add their escorts and some civilian traffic too.

There's also the question of whether this is the easiest solution if you had the assets. Is attacking inside the volume of the Junction the simplest?

Also, an LD in a nest isn't going to be concerned with sniping. It is going to want to make full use of its element of surprise. This is going to be a simultaneous coordinated attack with all batteries firing.


Agreed, that's what it should do. Once the element of surprise is lost, everyone who did not get destroyed will be blasting grasers and scanners. There's exactly one opportunity.

And what I'm getting at above is that there's no condition under which a fleet would be bunched up and without wedges and without everyone else at battlestations. Either they're already at battlestations waiting for the mass transit, with the exit lane swarming with escorts with their wedges up and obscuring possible lines of sight, or they won't be bunched up in the first place.

The closest I can get to that is for an attack somewhere in the Manticore system causing a Case Zulu, but with no direct threat to the Junction, like the Battle of Manticore. But you have to remember that for this battle, they were expecting a possible prong against the Junction, if nothing else to keep the reinforcements pinned.

But even if it were possible for this attacker to have remained hidden for the first hour and a half of expedited transit of the fleet, under full battle conditions of the two dozen forts and two dozen SD(P)s that have arrived, that attack could get no more than half of the fleet.

Anticipating a specific rebuttal about the number of energy weapons on an LD, recall I did say a tricked-out LD specifically built to lay eggs in nests. There are many kinds of Spiders.


And to be honest, I don't see any reason why an LD should have missile launch tubes at all. Torpedo tubes, sure. The rest should be graser mounts.

But remember what it means to have a "Leonard Detweiler class:" all the ships are ostensibly the same. Especially so if they're building 100 of them in a fast pace, before putting them through crucible of fights to figure out what works and what doesn't.

You also keep pointing out the fate of the LD and supporting your reasoning quite well. But that is a small consolation prize for all of the floating debris that was once 8th Fleet. Plus, an LD destroyed in such a nest probably won't leave behind any wreckage. It will be destroyed by trajectories which carries it into the turbulence.


Planners should never count on the fates being merciful. Always plan for the worst, such as mostly intact wreckage being retrievable, including full graser torpedoes with their spider drives.

How do you mitigate this risk?
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:01 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6881
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Under non-battle conditions, there'll never be more than a handful of ships that can be attacked at any point: all the rest will have brought their wedges up and will be under power. So even if the attacker brought plenty of graser torpedoes to have multiple lines of attack, the geometry may simply not match. There's a high risk of detection and a low probability of success in this scenario. Plus, if it's not under battle conditions, the timing isn't pre-determined: the fleet could be delayed hours for any reason, while for every minute that passes the chances of random detection of the attacker increase. In fact, the total transit time is very high: 60 SD(P)s would take over 3 hours to transit by themselves, and you have to add their escorts and some civilian traffic too.
The hours, just for the SD(P)s seems a bit long.

EoH tells us an SD shuts down the womrhole "for a hundred and thirteen" seconds. SD(P)s are a bit bigger but for even the largest we've seen yet, the Harrington IIs at 8,779,250 ton (~11k tons heavier than an Invictus) my best estimate is transit would shut it down for 124 seconds.

Minimum normal separation between ships is 60 seconds, so you're not even pushing ACS regs to send the next through as soon as the wormhole's ready. So 60 of those, going through one at a time, would "only" shut down the wormhole for a touch over 2 hours. (Plus of course, as you note, extra time for their escorts)


Still, spreadsheet based nitpicking aside ;), your point stand -an ambusher won't have a concentrated target to destroy stands. RFC said in his wormhole assault post from back in 2012 that it takes an SD 4.5 minutes to clear the Junction transit lane - so with them coming through 124 seconds (or more) apart you'd only have, at most, 3 ships in that transit lane (and thus under sails and without sidewalls) during this parade of arriving SD(P)s. Slim pickings indeed.
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:18 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1858
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

Jonathan_S wrote:EoH tells us an SD shuts down the womrhole "for a hundred and thirteen" seconds. SD(P)s are a bit bigger but for even the largest we've seen yet, the Harrington IIs at 8,779,250 ton (~11k tons heavier than an Invictus) my best estimate is transit would shut it down for 124 seconds.


Yeah, I'd rounded up to 3 minutes, but that's probably not a rounding ACS can take, not with the amount of traffic going through the Trevor's Star terminus.ming through 124 seconds (or more) apart you'd only have, at most, 3 ships in that transit lane (and thus under sails and without sidewalls) during this parade of arriving SD(P)s. Slim pickings indeed.[/quote]
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:29 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13177
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

cthia wrote:Again, the trigger won't be pulled until 8th Fleet is in its crosshairs. Either transiting to or from Trevor's Star. Either returning from exercises or attempting to assist. 8th Fleet definitely may attempt transit into a hostile system to assist. It won't know the WH has a Spider in its nest. And I assume any such nest will have a clear shot at all ships waiting to transit. Even if they are not stacked for a mass transit. And if they are stacked for a mass transit, well, thank you providence.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:There won't be a mass transit unless it's under battle conditions.[1] If it is under battle conditions -- a Case Zulu --, they'll only transit if the other side is known to be safe, meaning there are already dozens of ships with wedges surrounding the exit lanes, thus in very close proximity to any attacker, plus the forts, all blasting on active scans.[2] Then remember that the maximum transit mass does not allow for the entire fleet to transit. Only ~25 SD(P)s can do that, which means the fleet's CO will have sent 25-35 SD(P)s first, in regular (expedited) transit. So in those "dozens of ships," you must account for 2 or 3 dozen being SD(P)s at action stations.


[1] Duly noted. By myself and certainly by the MA.
[2] I reserve judgment as to whether those intense scans will be able to locate the LD. Especially since a certain passage which featured Abigail Hearns had to specifically direct scans to "concentrate on this particular region of space." I don't think those glaring scans on steroids will be looking for mice all snug as a spider in a nest in their own coat pockets.

Another thing. Certainly the 25 or so SDs already awaiting the go ahead are toast. But I'd think SOP of the additional mass transit to follow will already have their wedges down ready to move into the lane under thrusters. I doubt SOP allows extremely flammable lighter fluid near a flame. Which means the group of ships that would transit next will also be under fire.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Under non-battle conditions, there'll never be more than a handful of ships that can be attacked at any point: all the rest will have brought their wedges up and will be under power. So even if the attacker brought plenty of graser torpedoes to have multiple lines of attack, the geometry may simply not match. There's a high risk of detection and a low probability of success in this scenario. Plus, if it's not under battle conditions, the timing isn't pre-determined: the fleet could be delayed hours for any reason, while for every minute that passes the chances of random detection of the attacker increase. In fact, the total transit time is very high: 60 SD(P)s would take over 3 hours to transit by themselves, and you have to add their escorts and some civilian traffic too.

Ok, I can see that point. So, catching the fleet returning from exercises isn't optimal. Unless, perhaps, Honor as a prize is erroneously thought acceptable to one of the MA's hot-headed Captains on the spot.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:There's also the question of whether this is the easiest solution if you had the assets. Is attacking inside the volume of the Junction the simplest?

The MA are not ceatures of simplicity. However, this is a plan that can potentially reap incredible, acceptable rewards.

cthia wrote:Also, an LD in a nest isn't going to be concerned with sniping. It is going to want to make full use of its element of surprise. This is going to be a simultaneous coordinated attack with all batteries firing.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Agreed, that's what it should do. Once the element of surprise is lost, everyone who did not get destroyed will be blasting grasers and scanners. There's exactly one opportunity.

And what I'm getting at above is that there's no condition under which a fleet would be bunched up and without wedges and without everyone else at battlestations. Either they're already at battlestations waiting for the mass transit, with the exit lane swarming with escorts with their wedges up and obscuring possible lines of sight, or they won't be bunched up in the first place.

The closest I can get to that is for an attack somewhere in the Manticore system causing a Case Zulu, but with no direct threat to the Junction, like the Battle of Manticore. But you have to remember that for this battle, they were expecting a possible prong against the Junction, if nothing else to keep the reinforcements pinned.

Possibly obscuring lines of sight, which the MA would have foreseen in their meticulous perusal of the specific minute details of the WH maps that noone has scrutinized for centuries. Maps that have never been scrutinized at all for nefarious purposes of ways someone who has certain kinds of unimaginable and untold stealth could exploit.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But even if it were possible for this attacker to have remained hidden for the first hour and a half of expedited transit of the fleet, under full battle conditions of the two dozen forts and two dozen SD(P)s that have arrived, that attack could get no more than half of the fleet.

The MA will be aware of the conditions which cause a mass transit. Remember, the Alignment can ill-afford a long protracted war. They will be introducing their LDs in a one time affair in a theatre near you. You can best believe the stage will be set for a Case Zulu.

Half of the Fleet in one-fell-swoop is certainly an acceptable trade-off. And remember, the other half may be ambushed by the other nest on the other side of the junction if someone with a sixth sense misses it while caught up in the crucible of battle. But even if the other side is warned of the possibility of a nest, the LD still has to be found in very short order. And, I don't think the other side will suddenly become aware of exactly what tactic, and exactly where to look to find the LD.

At any rate, killing half of Eighth Fleet and eliminating the other half by turning them into cowards fearing transit might be acceptable to the outcome of the battle.

Also, I keep harping on the fact that an all-out war by the MA will cause them to take off their gloves too (a shout-out to Michelle Henke), and there will no longer be any reason for them to withhold full use of all of their tech. Namely, nanite compulsion. Someone could be "persuaded" to order the first mass transit of the series that totally shuts down the junction, and Eighth Fleet.

cthia wrote:Anticipating a specific rebuttal about the number of energy weapons on an LD, recall I did say a tricked-out LD specifically built to lay eggs in nests. There are many kinds of Spiders.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:And to be honest, I don't see any reason why an LD should have missile launch tubes at all. Torpedo tubes, sure. The rest should be graser mounts.

But remember what it means to have a "Leonard Detweiler class:" all the ships are ostensibly the same. Especially so if they're building 100 of them in a fast pace, before putting them through crucible of fights to figure out what works and what doesn't.

But, like the Japanese planes in WWII, perhaps their payload can be configured when they set sail. LOL

At any rate, this plan could have been sitting on the back burner for some time, and a page taken out of Hemphill's book of possible test-beds.

cthia wrote:You also keep pointing out the fate of the LD and supporting your reasoning quite well. But that is a small consolation prize for all of the floating debris that was once 8th Fleet. Plus, an LD destroyed in such a nest probably won't leave behind any wreckage. It will be destroyed by trajectories which carries it into the turbulence.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Planners should never count on the fates being merciful. Always plan for the worst, such as mostly intact wreckage being retrievable, including full graser torpedoes with their spider drives.

How do you mitigate this risk?

Suicide. The LD choosing a course which takes it directly into the Maelstrom to be ripped apart into constituent atoms.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:09 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1858
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

cthia wrote:[2] I reserve judgment as to whether those intense scans will be able to locate the LD. Especially since a certain passage which featured Abigail Hearns had to specifically direct scans to "concentrate on this particular region of space." I don't think those glaring scans on steroids will be looking for mice all snug as a spider in a nest in their own coat pockets.


Agreed it's unknowable until RFC tells us.

Another thing. Certainly the 25 or so SDs already awaiting the go ahead are toast. But I'd think SOP of the additional mass transit to follow will already have their wedges down ready to move into the lane under thrusters. I doubt SOP allows extremely flammable lighter fluid near a flame. Which means the group of ships that would transit next will also be under fire.


I don't think I was clear, but I might not have understood you either.

I was talking about the scenario after the mass transit, which is what triggers the attack: there are 25-35 SD(P)s with full wedges and sidewalls up, in full battle readiness, performing standard evasive manoeuvres while moving off the exit lane towards the assembly point, and 25 SD(P)s that have just arrived, with sails up and wedges down. Those 25 are the only ones that can be attacked, plus a few more that can be targets of opportunity for up-the-kilt or down-the-throat shots. It can't be all of the rest because they'll be under battle conditions.

But as I said, I might not have understood you: did you mean something different? Did you mean an attack on both sides of the Junction?

The MA are not ceatures of simplicity. However, this is a plan that can potentially reap incredible, acceptable rewards.


Well, worse decisions have been made that, in hindsight, should never have been taken.

Possibly obscuring lines of sight, which the MA would have foreseen in their meticulous perusal of the specific minute details of the WH maps that noone has scrutinized for centuries. Maps that have never been scrutinized at all for nefarious purposes of ways someone who has certain kinds of unimaginable and untold stealth could exploit.


You're making a huge assumption here that a) such a nest is even possible and that b) such a nest's line of sight to the exit lane won't be blocked by the ships newly arriving. Unless there's a pressing reason to do otherwise, given that the Junction is a spherical volume, the vector from the exit lane to the hyperlimit can be arbitrarily chosen. The transit time to Manticore is mostly spent in hyper and getting to the hyperlimit; the point you choose the hyperlimit is negligible. If this point can be arbitrarily chosen, then there's a great chance that the nest won't have up-the-kilt shots to the assembling ships (and you don't want down-the-throat because that means they're coming towards you, decreasing distance and increasing detection probability).

But I admit that this is also a conjecture. It's entirely possible that the path from exit lane to hyperlimit is predictable and thus can be stalked. Military planners shouldn't make themselves predictable (Rule #1 of Space Warfare), but this may not be obvious until hindsight.

Half of the Fleet in one-fell-swoop is certainly an acceptable trade-off. And remember, the other half may be ambushed by the other nest on the other side of the junction if someone with a sixth sense misses it while caught up in the crucible of battle. But even if the other side is warned of the possibility of a nest, the LD still has to be found in very short order. And, I don't think the other side will suddenly become aware of exactly what tactic, and exactly where to look to find the LD.


The other half or 65% has wedges and sidewalls up and is performing standard evasive manoeuvring.

If the LD fires while there are dozens of ships and forts linked into a tac net, it will be found and will be destroyed within seconds. The Bellerophon was ambushed by a BC squadron at the start of the war with Haven and shot those out of the sky within seconds, and the Bellerophon wasn't even ready for action. This is independent of how good their stealth is. The graser beams can be tracked back to the origin point by all units that survive the strike.

The LD needs to fire its graser torpedoes only, not itself. That means the LD should be nowhere near the exit lanes in the first place. It should be close enough that it can control the torpedoes with acceptable lag, but it shouldn't its own graser mounts. As we've said before: if the LD has to fire any mounts it has, the plan has already gone to hell.

At any rate, killing half of Eighth Fleet and eliminating the other half by turning them into cowards fearing transit might be acceptable to the outcome of the battle.


What transit? They're already on the hither side of the wormhole.

Also, I keep harping on the fact that an all-out war by the MA will cause them to take off their gloves too (a shout-out to Michelle Henke), and there will no longer be any reason for them to withhold full use of all of their tech. Namely, nanite compulsion. Someone could be "persuaded" to order the first mass transit of the series that totally shuts down the junction, and Eighth Fleet.


That can't happen, for all we know of the compulsion. First, said order can only be given by the CO of the fleet in question. Second, it isn't a macro that takes rote action to perform: making a mass transit takes an hour to prepare, with the navigation and piloting crews of two dozen superdreadnoughts participating. Third, that means there are at least 3 admirals in this, one per battle squadron (assuming we return to 8-ship squadrons, otherwise 4 admirals), each one with their staff of a dozen people, and their flag captains. Then there's ACS, that has to permit such a transit to happen and will want to discuss specifics. Someone is going to wonder why you're locking down the Junction for 19 hours at the start of the battle and whether this tactic is sound. A simple call to the CO to ask for confirmation should dispel the compulsion or, alternatively, confirm said CO is not of sound mind.

But, like the Japanese planes in WWII, perhaps their payload can be configured when they set sail. LOL


Internal payload, sure. Replacing graser mounts is a multi-month-long job at a yard.

Sure, they can make such a one-off ship for a special occasion.

Suicide. The LD choosing a course which takes it directly into the Maelstrom to be ripped apart into constituent atoms.


Hmm... given that it's spider-driven, unless it's totally destroyed, it will retain manoeuvring capabilities. A similar impeller-driven ship could be disabled by knocking both sets of impellers offline or compromising the compensators. So it is possible for it to keep moving while severely damaged.

Interesting consequence. I wonder if it's occurred to RFC.

But I'm not sure going into an open blender is the best solution. And I use the metaphor intentionally: when you run a blender without cover, bits and pieces fly off in every direction. The gravity eddies should shred the ship indeed, but do so by flinging pieces in all directions. Some of those might be big.

I would go for a much simpler solution: a controlled self-destruct.
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:16 am

Brigade XO
Admiral

Posts: 2676
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

What do we know about the LDs?
They are massive.
They have Spider drive with is -so far- undetectable but we also don't know what progress has been made by Manticore at teasing data out of the Oyster Bay strike and other than the purely ballistic packages of weapons being rained down orbital facilities there were three types of things operating with Spider drives. 1) The Ghosts, 2) the Sharks and 3) most important, the Grazer torpedoes.
The LDs are designed to launch (or release) the GTs from internal tubes (or whatever system they are using) and are either going to push the out (as with mass drivers) or swim them out (from some type of launch bay).
We presume they have various other conventional systems such as CMs and laser clusters etc.
We might well assume they have drones of both recon and defensive types. The Wraith mentioned in conjunction with Silver Bullet comes to mind.
We also presume that they probably have more conventional offensive weapons such as at least Cataphracts and lasers/grazers although given their mission profile being more like a stealth bomber, that would be more of a last ditch function of pump a lot of things to force an attacker to defend against.
We know that in Oyster Bay, much of the ordinance was delivered as ballistic packages in timed, non powered paths so that would also be reasonable to expect.

However, using GTs from a LD Spider in a nest hiding near a wormhole terminus is going to take just a bit more planning than doing massive volleys from stealth pods. It appears that the GTs used in the active maneuver stage for the GTs against the stations (and we presume other large targets) meant that they had to 1st be sent in (which could have been ballistic) but they had to use power to at least do the finally terminal maneuvers relative to the stations and then hose the targets with the overloading grazers.
How long can a GT be parked on minimal power? How fast can a GT move, and stay undetectable. Put it this way: How close does an LD need to be to launch GTs at a set of targets like a fleet getting ready to transit?
Are the transit lanes of a terminus always relative to something like a channel or canal for wet navy or merchant vessels? If they are not, how do you park something like a GT relative to the transit lanes? Much has been made of the shoals of pods and now repurposed SLN capital ship grazers being seeded relative to parts of the Junction and we gather terminus locations. But if they are essentially orbiting the terminus or junction they are constantly moving in space. If you are going to "mine" a terminus with GTs or pods (for GTs or Cataphracts) you are going to have to take all that orbital mechanics into account.
What is the linger or dwell time of a GT holding station. Back to the Silver Bullet. That was fairly big (two Rhino call armored shipping containers) with power supply (seems to be capacitors) AND solar panels- because you need to keep adding at least a trickle charge to the unit. It has a limited dwell time plus it needed to maintain both station keeping and aiming capability. The Silver Bullet packages were also designed to be expendable. Not exactly clear if they had grazers built in with all that sensor and targeting equipment but nothing was said about having attached GTs to them.

So how close does a LD need to be to do something like flush out 20 or 60 or 100 GTs
to attack warships (and possibly defensive stations like forts) near a terminus? It's a tactical question. Or, how far away can a LD be to react in a tactical effective launch of other-than-impeller-drive -missiles agains warships maneuvering to enter a terminus transit lane?

Ambush hunter. Not "resting on the bottom" conserving energy.
Another minor point. At this time all sorts of active measures - like sidewalls up- are goin to be in effect against attacks by invisible ships so forts and other things will be tougher all the time with active defenses. Just wondering. :)
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:47 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6881
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Brigade XO wrote:So how close does a LD need to be to do something like flush out 20 or 60 or 100 GTs
to attack warships (and possibly defensive stations like forts) near a terminus? It's a tactical question. Or, how far away can a LD be to react in a tactical effective launch of other-than-impeller-drive -missiles agains warships maneuvering to enter a terminus transit lane?

Ambush hunter. Not "resting on the bottom" conserving energy.
Another minor point. At this time all sorts of active measures - like sidewalls up- are goin to be in effect against attacks by invisible ships so forts and other things will be tougher all the time with active defenses. Just wondering. :)

Also remember, we know that spider drive activation, when you start it up, is its most visible time. (It's still stealthy; just not as stealthy.)
Mission of Honor Ch.9 wrote:Even the spider had a footprint, after all, even if it wasn’t something anyone else would have associated with a drive system. All it would take was for someone to notice an anomalous reading and be conscientious enough—or, for that matter, bored enough—to spend a little time trying to figure out what it was.
And the fact that the spider’s signature flares as it comes up only makes that more likely, he reflected.
(italicized in the book)

So a mass GT launch at close range seems like it'd be the most likely scenario for them to be detected; dozens and dozens of those spider activation flares going off en masse.

And remember, Commodore Sung was worried about his Ghost's drive flare being potentially detectable at 1 - 2 light minutes. (For reference, 1-2 LM from the terminus would put you beyond the Junction's hyper limit; and so way, way, outside the defending shells of forts). If you're trying to hide in the grav distortions around the terminus I'd think you'd have to be really close. So close that GTs are almost pointless because they'd launch within range of their warheads. The exit lanes of the Junction are only 90,000 km long and the turbulence falls off fast beyond or beside them; so you probably need to be within 100,000 km of the terminus to have enough disturbance around to mess with sensors.

And at which point the stealth field you're using to help hide the waste heat is likely detectable; as we're told those fields can be detected at "extremely short ranges" [MoH Ch9]. Still if you had a bad angle, or were trying to avoid energy fire pointing back as your location and you did fire off a mass of GTs and have them manouver lighting off their spider drives at hundreds of times closer to the forts that Sung was to the GSN Sag-Cs seems like there's a fairly good chance the mass anomalies from their start-up flares would stand out; even in the space around the terminus.
Top
Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:01 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4255
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

Cthia wrote:Another thing. Certainly the 25 or so SDs already awaiting the go ahead are toast. But I'd think SOP of the additional mass transit to follow will already have their wedges down ready to move into the lane under thrusters. I doubt SOP allows extremely flammable lighter fluid near a flame. Which means the group of ships that would transit next will also be under fire.

<snip>

Ships in the transit queue do not have their wedges down. In every read of wormhole transits, the ship transiting has been under wedge in the queue, then transitions to sail, one sail at a time, when entering the terminus.

The real question is whether warships in the queue would be buttoned up for combat with sidewalls up. Normally, probably not, but under your conditions (responding to an incursion forcing bulk reinforcements through the wormhole)) the ships would be at battlestations while in queue - the RMN has experienced coordinated attacks in the past and SHOULD have inn their SOP to be prepared for one. At the very least, the ships will be expecting combat on the other side of the terminus and will be buttoned up at alert posture in advance of transiting.

In addition, an alert status will drive the "off-shift" Forts to alert also, just in case there is a coordinated attack. So instead of 2 dozen forts prepared to fight, all 60 or so forts will be at action stations, and instead of a hundred or so LACs on patrol, hundreds will be launching every minute and taking defensive positions, watching both the Termini and the hyperlimit.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top

Return to Honorverse