Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 15 guests

OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by kzt   » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:12 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10228
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Galactic Sapper wrote: It still would have been significantly better than zero, which was the alternative d'Orville actually got.

That's the key point. Even if he'd just used the excess pods as penaids that would have been SOMETHING.
Top
Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:45 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6150
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Can Sphinx- and Gryphon-class SDs even fire MDMs from internal tubes? I don't think we've ever heard of MDMs being fired from anything except pods and ships designed after MDMs came into being. If they can't, then over half his wall units would be passive until they got to SDM range.
I'm pretty sure we've saw a handful of refit SDs in one book launching (unspecified) MDMs (but I'm not finding it right now). And as munroburton alluded to the Gryphon-class entry in HoS says that a few were refit with micro-fusion powered Mk23 MDM before the war resumed. (Though honestly I'm shocked they did that given all the extra work for handling micro-fusion missiles; instead of refitting them to fire the older (but larger) conventionally powered Mk41 MDMs)
And of course Grayson's Benjamin the Great-class command SDs were commissioned from the outset with MDM tubes. Some very last Gryphons and Sphynx-class ships might have also come from the yards with tubes for the original Mk41 MDMs - but if so HoS is silent on that.

But the vast majority, if not all, of Home Fleet's SDs would only have single drive missiles in their magazines.

Galactic Sapper wrote:Naval Station Ganymede mass launched 120,000 Cataphract pods at Grand Fleet, and Grand Fleet predictably hypered out a few seconds before they hit. No word on whether they were a specialized system defense variant, though.
Oops. I totally forgot that Naval Station Ganymede returned fire on Honor's fleet.
Uncompromising Honor wrote:Seven hundred and twenty thousand missiles—the next best thing to three-quarters of a million of them, over seven thousand per target—represented a terrifying weight of metal. Yet the truth was that neither he nor Pataloeshti truly expected them to accomplish much. Targeting would have been…questionable at nineteen light-minutes under any circumstances, the range was far too great for any control link, and given the reported efficacy of Manty EW and missile-defense systems, “questiona-ble” was probably about to become “futile.” Which didn’t even consider the fact that the Manties were outside even Jupiter’s hyper-limit.
But it wasn’t like he had a choice. Their own launch had made that much abundantly clear. And so did the com link’s total, icy silence.
OTOH they had no reason to expect those pods to survive Honor's fire so they had to have figured they were in a use 'em or lose 'em situation.

They could have waited a bit longer to fire, since the Naval Station was unlikely to survive long enough shepherd the Cataphracts all the way to the target, but it wasn't like Honor's ships were going to advance into Jupiter's hyper limit before seeing what their missiles did. Guess an infinitesimal chance of retaliating is better than dying with your weapons unfired. (Course it turned out they were wrong about Honor's target selection - but totally right about how ineffective the return fire would be) Problem is in the age of even DDMs Jupiter's hyper limit simply isn't large enough to prevent attackers from taking fairly accurate shots while remaining outside it.

Looking at it now I'm not sure why Honor bothered to fire from so far away. Uriel is larger than Jupiter and its hyper limit is only "almost 5 light-minutes" [HotQ]. That's under 90 million km -- and Jupiter orbits out past 40 light minutes so it's way beyond Sol's hyper limit. So why did Honor fire from over 340 million km out?
Top
Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:54 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3727
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Troy, Mi

kzt wrote:
Galactic Sapper wrote: It still would have been significantly better than zero, which was the alternative d'Orville actually got.

That's the key point. Even if he'd just used the excess pods as penaids that would have been SOMETHING.


At the very least, early launches would have drained countermissiles ( especially on the LACs), kept stacked salvos from forming ( or caused already stacked salvos to launch prematurely at inaccurate ranges), and cause distributed damage to the enemy. A destroyed of damaged LAC is one less that can defend later, a damaged sidewall is easier to breach, damaged firecontrol and sensors fire smaller salvos. And smaller salvos are less likely to saturate defenses.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:12 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Captain of the List

Posts: 579
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Jonathan_S wrote:Problem is in the age of even DDMs Jupiter's hyper limit simply isn't large enough to prevent attackers from taking fairly accurate shots while remaining outside it.

Looking at it now I'm not sure why Honor bothered to fire from so far away. Uriel is larger than Jupiter and its hyper limit is only "almost 5 light-minutes" [HotQ]. That's under 90 million km -- and Jupiter orbits out past 40 light minutes so it's way beyond Sol's hyper limit. So why did Honor fire from over 340 million km out?


I think it's said somewhere that Jupiter's hyper limit is 3 light-minutes, or 54 million km. That's outside the powered range of a DDM (35 million km), but inside a 3-stage MDM (65 million). A middle unpowered section would get your DDMs through (in just 3min 54s), but that's is also true of any target and any range.

As for why Honor was half-way to Saturn (if Jupiter and Saturn had been on conjunction), probably because the GF emerged in the middle of nowhere exactly to prevent anyone from being close enough to fire at it before they could hyper out again. And accepted a full 28 and a quarter minutes of coasting.
Top
Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:32 pm

Loren Pechtel
Commodore

Posts: 825
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:24 pm

Jonathan_S wrote:Looking at it now I'm not sure why Honor bothered to fire from so far away. Uriel is larger than Jupiter and its hyper limit is only "almost 5 light-minutes" [HotQ]. That's under 90 million km -- and Jupiter orbits out past 40 light minutes so it's way beyond Sol's hyper limit. So why did Honor fire from over 340 million km out?


She was making a point. It wasn't about attacking Jupiter, she was demonstrating that she could hit anything in the system while remaining outside the hyper limit and thus invulnerable to just about anything the sillies could do.

Think back 75 years, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The real point of the bombs was to show that we could destroy Japan without going into AA range. It wasn't the awesome firepower that made Japan surrender, they surrendered because their strategy of trying to make victory too bloody for us to stomach was rendered moot.
Top
Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:20 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11462
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Why didn't Honor suggest to Kuzak to roll pods before hypering in all half-cocked? Literally.

She couldn't order Kuzak to do anything, but what was wrong with a little friendly advice? When Honor said that the first thing she wanted to do was to roll pods, was, IMO, a swipe at Kuzak's idiocy. That's the vibe I got.

I also wondered if she didn't suggest it because her relationship with Kuzak isn't what it could be, or should be. Given Kuzak's past history with Hamish.

If so, it is a pointed example of the importance of that particular reg.

Keep it in your pants... so you can do the right thing when it's time to dance.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by kzt   » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:06 am

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10228
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Don’t be too hard on Kuzak. She was beaten senseless by David’s plot hammer, as was D’orville.

Note that one of the things that is mentioned is that the LACs of 3rd were hovering around third instead of being deployed forward towards 2nd. Umm, for how long had 2nd been in front of 3rd? David writes the fight like both 2nd and 5th teleported in on 3rd while it was out for a casual cruise. Its like he forgot that 3rd had been boring in on 2nd for quite a while and the LACs should not be in a position to decide where to go, they should have already been there.
Top
Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:15 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3727
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Troy, Mi

cthia wrote:Why didn't Honor suggest to Kuzak to roll pods before hypering in all half-cocked? Literally.

She couldn't order Kuzak to do anything, but what was wrong with a little friendly advice? When Honor said that the first thing she wanted to do was to roll pods, was, IMO, a swipe at Kuzak's idiocy. That's the vibe I got.

I also wondered if she didn't suggest it because her relationship with Kuzak isn't what it could be, or should be. Given Kuzak's past history with Hamish.

If so, it is a pointed example of the importance of that particular reg.

Keep it in your pants... so you can do the right thing when it's time to dance.


AAC is one of the books that received considerable editing between the EARC and the print version. I, unfortunately, didn't initially buy the print version and kept quoting text from the EARC for almost a year before someone mentioned that my text didn't match theirs.

In the EARC, while planning 3rd fleet moves to reinforce Home fleet, Kusak speaks to her staff just prior to Honor's comm message in snarky tones ( towards Honor), kind of a "I'll do this, If she lets me..." Speech, indicating some resentment towards Honor. That doesn't come through in the final, but gives some background into David's creation of Kusak. Prior to this she has no POV time, so we don't know her.

Anyway, given this, I always felt Kusak resented Honor, possibly for inserting herself into Hamish's life, but definitely her talents. Kusak has decades more experience than Honor, And probably would have distaste for the youngster dictating tactics to her.

As I said, this was edited out of the final, but I thought it shaped Kusak's character. She's been in defensive fleets since the new buttercup tech came out, and never got hands on experience with it. So she (and likewise, DeOrville), are creatures of the past, with old thinking. Someone on their staffs should be up to speed and using the new playbook, just like all the junior commanders we see do, but the Defense Fleet commands seem to be top-heavy with old strategists, untrusting of new strategies, or those who gained notariety using them.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:40 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11462
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:Why didn't Honor suggest to Kuzak to roll pods before hypering in all half-cocked? Literally.

She couldn't order Kuzak to do anything, but what was wrong with a little friendly advice? When Honor said that the first thing she wanted to do was to roll pods, was, IMO, a swipe at Kuzak's idiocy. That's the vibe I got.

I also wondered if she didn't suggest it because her relationship with Kuzak isn't what it could be, or should be. Given Kuzak's past history with Hamish.

If so, it is a pointed example of the importance of that particular reg.

Keep it in your pants... so you can do the right thing when it's time to dance.


AAC is one of the books that received considerable editing between the EARC and the print version. I, unfortunately, didn't initially buy the print version and kept quoting text from the EARC for almost a year before someone mentioned that my text didn't match theirs.

In the EARC, while planning 3rd fleet moves to reinforce Home fleet, Kusak speaks to her staff just prior to Honor's comm message in snarky tones ( towards Honor), kind of a "I'll do this, If she lets me..." Speech, indicating some resentment towards Honor. That doesn't come through in the final, but gives some background into David's creation of Kusak. Prior to this she has no POV time, so we don't know her.

Anyway, given this, I always felt Kusak resented Honor, possibly for inserting herself into Hamish's life, but definitely her talents. Kusak has decades more experience than Honor, And probably would have distaste for the youngster dictating tactics to her.

As I said, this was edited out of the final, but I thought it shaped Kusak's character. She's been in defensive fleets since the new buttercup tech came out, and never got hands on experience with it. So she (and likewise, DeOrville), are creatures of the past, with old thinking. Someone on their staffs should be up to speed and using the new playbook, just like all the junior commanders we see do, but the Defense Fleet commands seem to be top-heavy with old strategists, untrusting of new strategies, or those who gained notariety using them.

Whaaa? :o

That shouldn't have been edited out! It's crucial to storyline! I always thought there was something more to it. Honor's sentiment "But the first thing I want to do is roll pods," seems to be a dead giveaway (no pun intended, but fits). I steered clear of the subject because I wasn't sure, but it nagged at me. In such an important impending battle, I couldn't understand why Honor and Kuzak didn't discuss tactics. This was the Battle of Manticore. It seemed more of a "Go on, get yourself killed," sort of thing on Honor's part. I'm willing to bet the farm Honor's spider senses were tingling like a Salamander about to become overrun by a lorry driven by army ants. Yet she didn't caution Kuzak.

Now I'm beginning to wonder if Kuzak actually had the talent everyone thought, or if she, ahem, received favor from the good ol boy network, um, Hamish. Patronage.

@ kzt. Between the two, D'Orville is the one that I'd choose to grade on a curve. He hadn't seen battle since his last thumb war! He was bored and complacent for how long? He certainly most likely fell into the 'Never will happen here' school of complacency.

At any rate, thanksamillion Theemile for some behind the scenes reporting. We owe you immensely. And so does the author, when it comes down to buying the EARC next time!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by munroburton   » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:14 am

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2056
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:16 am
Location: Scotland

cthia wrote:Now I'm beginning to wonder if Kuzak actually had the talent everyone thought, or if she, ahem, received favor from the good ol boy network, um, Hamish. Patronage.

@ kzt. Between the two, D'Orville is the one that I'd choose to grade on a curve. He hadn't seen battle since his last thumb war! He was bored and complacent for how long? And he certainly most likely fell into the 'never will happen here' school of complacency.

At any rate, thanksamillion Theemile for some shine the scenes reporting. We owe you immensely. And so does the author, when it comes down to buying the EARC next time!


It fits. For all their successes, the old RMN is not actually as overwhelmingly brilliant as its reputation suggested it was.

Hamish Alexander, supposedly their most stellar flag officer at one point, could not recognise the potential of podlaying SDs + MDMs when he first saw the proposal. Was in fact working up vehement opposition to the concept in favour of, presumably, more and more Gryphons SDs.

Hamish and D'Orville were both at Third Yeltsin, IIRC, and Parnell was almost deified for getting so many of his ships out of that trap. I do wonder about that - was Parnell really so good or did the RMN make a couple of slip-ups there too?

Then there were their worst flag officers. Harold Styles, entire squadron captured with cold impellers. Frances Yeargin. Elvis Santino. The two screamingly pro-Young officers on his court martial panel. Project Anzio was given to another two flag officers who wanted to kill the LAC project off completely(and did that so incompetently they killed their own careers instead). Edward Janacek and some of the Space Lords he appointed.

The RMN is mostly very good, no doubt. It's just not perfect or invincible.
Top

Return to Honorverse