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How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?

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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Relax   » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:45 am

Relax
Admiral

Posts: 2747
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:18 pm

munroburton wrote:
Relax wrote:Lets just say that 2 countries at war for 2++ decades becoming life long best friends forever is as realistic as a druggie in Seattle/Vancouver where drugs/needles are handed out by the government, going into drug rehab...


It'll take time, but we do have real-world example. France and Germany. They're not quite "life long best friends forever", but that relationship is surprisingly close and amicable for two nations which spent a whole decade at war with each other last century, plus a large number of preceding conflicts.

Granted, Haven and Manticore were thrown together much quicker than the EEC/EU.

Vast difference:
Germany was completely conquered and had no self governance for several decades after WWII until 1990 happened(end of cold war) they had ZERO foreign policy. 100% of the population was frog marched through concentration camps which has an effect all its own. In short, they were a protectorate. So, no one in Germany had any ability to play nationalist games for an entire 2 generations. 2! Generations.

France was not much better. Took France 15 years after WWII to get hold of their own foreign policy... such as it was and there were 2 nations both with much LARGER militaries surrounding France telling them(Suez crisis) that they were a 2nd rate power at best and no, you do not have any foreign policy other than in the margins either.

So, in typical fashion, Germans became even more German, but without militarism, and the French in typical fashion huddled even closer to their language and played nationalist games with nouns and verbs. So yes, as of now, they are playing nice and huddling together as they both finally realized there are bigger fish in the sea and they need self protection. It did take several sledge hammers upside the head for them to figure this out and over 2 generations for this fact to settle into their cultural consciousness.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:08 am

TFLYTSNBN
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1422
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:58 am

Relax wrote:
munroburton wrote:
It'll take time, but we do have real-world example. France and Germany. They're not quite "life long best friends forever", but that relationship is surprisingly close and amicable for two nations which spent a whole decade at war with each other last century, plus a large number of preceding conflicts.

Granted, Haven and Manticore were thrown together much quicker than the EEC/EU.

Vast difference:
Germany was completely conquered and had no self governance for several decades after WWII until 1990 happened(end of cold war) they had ZERO foreign policy. 100% of the population was frog marched through concentration camps which has an effect all its own. In short, they were a protectorate. So, no one in Germany had any ability to play nationalist games for an entire 2 generations. 2! Generations.

France was not much better. Took France 15 years after WWII to get hold of their own foreign policy... such as it was and there were 2 nations both with much LARGER militaries surrounding France telling them(Suez crisis) that they were a 2nd rate power at best and no, you do not have any foreign policy other than in the margins either.

So, in typical fashion, Germans became even more German, but without militarism, and the French in typical fashion huddled even closer to their language and played nationalist games with nouns and verbs. So yes, as of now, they are playing nice and huddling together as they both finally realized there are bigger fish in the sea and they need self protection. It did take several sledge hammers upside the head for them to figure this out and over 2 generations for this fact to settle into their cultural consciousness.



You need to read THE ACCIDENTAL SUPERPOWER and THE ABSENT SUPERPOWER by Peter Zeihan.

Germany and to a somewhat lesser extent France became Protectorates of the United of the United States after WW2. Their rewards for surrendering their sovereignty to the United States were protection from the Soviet Warsaw Pact and free access to US markets as well as global markets and raw materials. Up until yesterday, they didn't even have to worry about convoying oil tankers from the Persian Gulf.

The US now has a President that understands that the Cold War is over and the Soviet Union is no more. Trump's decision to call off the retaliatory strikes on Iran heralds the end of US benevolent hegemony. The conflict with Turkey over the Russian S-400 missile system verses the F-35 will put NATO in it's grave.

It will be interesting to see how well France and Germany get along when they have to start fending for themselves again.

I'm popping popcorn.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by kzt   » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:41 am

kzt
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Location: Albuquerque, NM

I’m sure their dozen or so working Panzers, the two working fighters and the no working u-boats will keep them safe against any possible military threat.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:42 am

TFLYTSNBN
Rear Admiral

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kzt wrote:I’m sure their dozen or so working Panzers, the two working fighters and the no working u-boats will keep them safe against any possible military threat.



LoL
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Relax   » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:24 pm

Relax
Admiral

Posts: 2747
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:18 pm

TFLYTSNBN wrote:You need to read THE ACCIDENTAL SUPERPOWER and THE ABSENT SUPERPOWER by Peter Zeihan.

I'm popping popcorn.

Read them. His Twitter feed https://twitter.com/PeterZeihan is better than the books. Yea, he is a bit of a socialist utopian(what academic is not?)but, he at least can figure out geopolitics, just anything regarding military or tech in practical use.... run away.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Relax   » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:31 pm

Relax
Admiral

Posts: 2747
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:18 pm

Relax wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:You need to read THE ACCIDENTAL SUPERPOWER and THE ABSENT SUPERPOWER by Peter Zeihan.

I'm popping popcorn.

Read them. His Twitter feed https://twitter.com/PeterZeihan is better than the books. Yea, he is a bit of a socialist utopian(what academic is not?)but, he at least can figure out geopolitics, just anything regarding military or tech in practical use.... run away.

My favorite tweet of his: https://twitter.com/PeterZeihan/status/ ... 0338040834

SO, USA/Mex, Aus, S. Africa, parts of Sahara, Argentina, and the UK have a chance at "renewable" and everyone else is screwed...
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by munroburton   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:35 am

munroburton
Admiral

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Location: Scotland

Relax wrote:So yes, as of now, they are playing nice and huddling together as they both finally realized there are bigger fish in the sea and they need self protection. It did take several sledge hammers upside the head for them to figure this out and over 2 generations for this fact to settle into their cultural consciousness.


As far as SEM & RoH are concerned, they are also in this position now. Both of them are facing two long-term superpowers - the still-mysterious Alignment and whatever the League becomes once the shockwaves of Sol's conquest settle down.

Both of them could be described to have suffered multiple "sledgehammers upside the head". Mostly swung by each other, but not always.

So I guess whether or not it settles into their cultural consciousness largely depends on their government policies of the next few decades. If even half the stuff they mentioned at the end of UH happens, they'll be well down that path.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:31 am

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munroburton wrote:
Relax wrote:So yes, as of now, they are playing nice and huddling together as they both finally realized there are bigger fish in the sea and they need self protection. It did take several sledge hammers upside the head for them to figure this out and over 2 generations for this fact to settle into their cultural consciousness.


As far as SEM & RoH are concerned, they are also in this position now. Both of them are facing two long-term superpowers - the still-mysterious Alignment and whatever the League becomes once the shockwaves of Sol's conquest settle down.

Both of them could be described to have suffered multiple "sledgehammers upside the head". Mostly swung by each other, but not always.

So I guess whether or not it settles into their cultural consciousness largely depends on their government policies of the next few decades. If even half the stuff they mentioned at the end of UH happens, they'll be well down that path.


I wouldn't call the MAlign a "superpower"- they are more of a Rogue Nation-state, trying to destabilize other established states, international relations, and trade through terrorism, false flag operations, and asymmetric warfare.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by munroburton   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:30 am

munroburton
Admiral

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Theemile wrote:I wouldn't call the MAlign a "superpower"- they are more of a Rogue Nation-state, trying to destabilize other established states, international relations, and trade through terrorism, false flag operations, and asymmetric warfare.


Not yet, but they've been disproportionately effective for their size, are obviously ambitious and intend to be the sole superpower eventually.

Either way, they're the most dangerous threat towards both SEM & RoH(& SL). One whose scope and size is mostly unknown. One which is going to be slapped with the responsibility for killing everyone during the two Manticore-Haven Wars and the Solarian-Manticore War. One which is always going to be "out there" until it's finally tracked down and annihilated.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Sigs   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:42 pm

Sigs
Commodore

Posts: 984
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:09 pm

kzt wrote:

Well, you see the SLN’s Frontier Fleet did in fact have many thousands of ships roaming the verge making it highly unsafe for pirates and would be conquers. Since the RMN told them they can’t do that, that means they have taken on the job. So how are they going to do it? Or are they going to say to 3/4 of the world “You guys are really in bad shape. I can’t possibly see how we can make a profit here. Hope the next band of pirates to come around aren’t too hard on you. Bye.”


They cant fix everything, everywhere, for everyone all at the same time. In most verge/protectorates the immediate defence needs would be met by a handful of LAC's and we all know that the RHN, RMN and GSN have plenty of LACs that would in small groups of 4-8 LACs eat up any pirate to come around. It will take time but splitting 5,000+ LACs to different systems would elminate the immediate issue.


What the RMN said is that Frontier Security is disbanded and Frontier Fleet is moved back to League Space, they didnt say they have to stay there. The GA can mandate that the SLN will provide X number of destroyers and X number of CL for protection of the verge and protectorates until those systems are capable of defending themselvs or the GA can provide protection out of their own resources. They are under the command of civilian/military GA leaders who would also happen to be ambassadors to those systems. If a system is not stable and there is a war going on the GA will not get involved until they have the means to mediate peace.


It is a shitty solution to a shitty problem that will buy the GA some time. There is no magic solution to a problem that is so big, but piracy shouldent be as wide spread initially as it would be in other situations because most of those verge systems would be dirt poor so not much of a target, some will try but at the end of the day the GA should do the best they can with what they have.
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