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(Spoilers) UH questions and discussion

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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:07 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:
Originally, there was a Mesan genetic mod to make long-term survival on Mesa possible. It's clearly not needed for short-term existence, but it ought to stand out.

There's a good deal of arm waving here. I've commented on it before. Quite frankly, BuNine needs a geneticist, and not someone who vaguely remembers that there are dominant and recessive genes from a 40 year old high school science class.

Right now, the big issue is that the Mesan Alpha mod has to be locked, or else Honor couldn't have inherited enough of it to be interesting, given the number of generations that have passed since Stephanie Harrington.

If it's locked, it ought to stand out like a fire engine to any moderately competent geneticist.

See the problem?



Assuming that they are looking and know what they are looking for.

Also assuming the noise of all the individually inspired mods doesn't confuse the researcher. I am willing to bet there is a crap load of mods in most of the Honorverse residents. Even a relatively few mods scattered about can spread in a relatively short period of time. All in all there may well be many locked mods that don't stem from the Star Lines. Toss in the contribution of genetic slaves' genes and there should be quite a few locked sequences distributed across the Honorverse population.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by JohnRoth   » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:56 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Also assuming the noise of all the individually inspired mods doesn't confuse the researcher. I am willing to bet there is a crap load of mods in most of the Honorverse residents. Even a relatively few mods scattered about can spread in a relatively short period of time. All in all there may well be many locked mods that don't stem from the Star Lines. Toss in the contribution of genetic slaves' genes and there should be quite a few locked sequences distributed across the Honorverse population.


I wouldn't make that assumption. Part of the reason is a matter of definition: what's a mod? If someone decides, for example, that their daughters would get an advantage out of being blond, and has his genome modified so that his children are blondes, is that a mod or is that simply a bit of cosmetic DNA surgery that isn't going to be distinguishable from any other blonde a few generations down the road?

Locked mods are a different issue. I'd expect that most locked mods are environmental like the Meyerdhal mods. Trying to make anything else a locked mod is going to run straight into the Beowulf Code, which is intended to prohibit things like the Mesan Alpha mods that attempt to create a "genetic superman."

I doubt that the genetic slave's mods are locked. Genetic slaves generally don't breed so locking the mods is pointless.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:19 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:I wouldn't make that assumption. Part of the reason is a matter of definition: what's a mod? If someone decides, for example, that their daughters would get an advantage out of being blond, and has his genome modified so that his children are blondes, is that a mod or is that simply a bit of cosmetic DNA surgery that isn't going to be distinguishable from any other blonde a few generations down the road?

Locked mods are a different issue. I'd expect that most locked mods are environmental like the Meyerdhal mods. Trying to make anything else a locked mod is going to run straight into the Beowulf Code, which is intended to prohibit things like the Mesan Alpha mods that attempt to create a "genetic superman."

I doubt that the genetic slave's mods are locked. Genetic slaves generally don't breed so locking the mods is pointless.

And you'd think that because of the possibility of conflicting locked mods that it would be routine for prospective parents to get scanned to see they have any risk of mod collisions in their kids ('cause if so they probably need a good genetic technician to intervene and prevent the issue)


So you wouldn't think that it wouldn't be possible for Honor or the Harringtons to have undetected locked mods wandering around in their genome. The geneticists probably don't know where every detected locked mod originated; but there would almost have to be a database of known mods with their origins, history, and known issues/tradeoffs.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:20 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:I wouldn't make that assumption. Part of the reason is a matter of definition: what's a mod? If someone decides, for example, that their daughters would get an advantage out of being blond, and has his genome modified so that his children are blondes, is that a mod or is that simply a bit of cosmetic DNA surgery that isn't going to be distinguishable from any other blonde a few generations down the road?

Locked mods are a different issue. I'd expect that most locked mods are environmental like the Meyerdhal mods. Trying to make anything else a locked mod is going to run straight into the Beowulf Code, which is intended to prohibit things like the Mesan Alpha mods that attempt to create a "genetic superman."

I doubt that the genetic slave's mods are locked. Genetic slaves generally don't breed so locking the mods is pointless.

And you'd think that because of the possibility of conflicting locked mods that it would be routine for prospective parents to get scanned to see they have any risk of mod collisions in their kids ('cause if so they probably need a good genetic technician to intervene and prevent the issue)


So you wouldn't think that it wouldn't be possible for Honor or the Harringtons to have undetected locked mods wandering around in their genome. The geneticists probably don't know where every detected locked mod originated; but there would almost have to be a database of known mods with their origins, history, and known issues/tradeoffs.


Which is, of course, one of the reasons I don't think locked mods are all that common.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by George J. Smith   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:59 am

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Assuming all the Meyerdahl immigrants to Sphinx had the locked Meyerdhal mods, how many generations would it take to spread the those mods throughout the general population of Sphinx?
.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:07 am

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George J. Smith wrote:Assuming all the Meyerdahl immigrants to Sphinx had the locked Meyerdhal mods, how many generations would it take to spread the those mods throughout the general population of Sphinx?

IIRC they're pretty well spread on Sphinx. Something like a third to half the population has one of the Meyerdahl mods. It appeared in one of the early books but I don't have machine readable copies.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:10 am

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Galactic Sapper wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:Assuming all the Meyerdahl immigrants to Sphinx had the locked Meyerdhal mods, how many generations would it take to spread the those mods throughout the general population of Sphinx?

IIRC they're pretty well spread on Sphinx. Something like a third to half the population has one of the Meyerdahl mods. It appeared in one of the early books but I don't have machine readable copies.



And that was just in a few hundred years. Note also that people with the mod almost certainly married those from outside Sphinx. There were undoubtedly a real lot of people on Manticore and Gryphon who had the mod. If it is actually locked in, there would be a lot of genies. Since there aren't, it is likely that it is not.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:17 am

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George J. Smith wrote:Assuming all the Meyerdahl immigrants to Sphinx had the locked Meyerdhal mods, how many generations would it take to spread the those mods throughout the general population of Sphinx?

Galactic Sapper wrote:IIRC they're pretty well spread on Sphinx. Something like a third to half the population has one of the Meyerdahl mods. It appeared in one of the early books but I don't have machine readable copies.

ldwechsler wrote:And that was just in a few hundred years. Note also that people with the mod almost certainly married those from outside Sphinx. There were undoubtedly a real lot of people on Manticore and Gryphon who had the mod. If it is actually locked in, there would be a lot of genies. Since there aren't, it is likely that it is not.

I have included the quote from chapter 3 of In Enemy Hands. The quote makes it clear that the Meyerdahl mods are dominant, but not locked.
"Don't worry, My Lord. Mike Henke teases me about it all the time, and the explanation's simple enough. I'm a genie."
The earl blinked briefly, his expression totally blank, then nodded in sudden understanding. It was considered extremely impolite to use the term "genie" to describe someone, but given Harrington's neurosurgeon father and—especially—geneticist mother, she was probably more comfortable with the label than many. For that matter, the prejudice against genetically engineered humans was slowly dying out as the last memories of Old Earth's Final War faded from the racial forebrain. But there had been no such prejudice in the early days of the Diaspora, and quite a few colonies had been established by genies specifically designed for their new environments.
"I wasn't aware of that, Milady," he said after a moment.
"We don't talk about it much, but I'd guess the majority of Sphinxians are genies by now," she replied. He raised a polite eyebrow, and she shrugged. "Think about it," she suggested. "Heavy-grav planets are one of the most common 'hostile' environments. You know that even today most heavy-worlders have shorter than average life expectancies?" She looked at White Haven again, and he nodded. "That's because even with modern medicine you can't put a body designed for a single gravity onto a one-point-three or one-point-five-gravity planet and expect it to function properly. I, on the other hand—"
She made a graceful gesture with one hand, and he nodded slowly. "I knew about the modifications for Quelhollow, but those are much more readily apparent than what you seem to be talking about," he observed.
"Well, Quelhollow had some other environmental concerns, whereas my ancestors were more of a . . . generic design, I suppose. Basically, my muscle tissue is about twenty-five percent more efficient than a 'pure human's,' and there are a few changes to my respiratory and circulatory systems, plus some skeletal reinforcement. The idea was to fit us for heavy-grav planets generally, not one in particular, and the geneticists made the changes dominant, so that every parent would pass them on to every child."
...
"That's only an estimate, and it's not one modification. The Harringtons are descended from the Meyerdahl First Wave, which was one of the first—in fact, I think it was the first—heavy-grav modification, and folks like us probably make up about twenty or twenty-five percent of the population. But there are several variations on the same theme, and worlds tend to attract colonists who can live there comfortably. When you add the free passages the government offered to recruit fresh colonists after the Plague of Twenty-Two AL, Sphinx wound up attracting an even bigger chunk of us than most, including a lot from the core worlds who wouldn't even have considered emigration otherwise. In many respects, the Meyerdahl genies are the most successful, in my modest opinion, though. Our musculature enhancement is certainly the most efficient, at any rate. But we do have one problem most of the others don't."
"Which is?"
"Most of us don't regenerate," she told him, touching the left side of her face. "Over eighty percent of us have a built-in genetic conflict with the regen therapies, and not even Beowulf has been able to figure out how to get around it yet. I'm pretty sure they will eventually, but for now—"
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:25 am

TFLYTSNBN

Is Manticore now going to criminalize being genetically engineered?

Is anyone possessing locked modifications in their genome going to be summarily executed as a Mesan operative?

The Winton Dynasty is going to be in deep, deep shit.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:35 am

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Is Manticore now going to criminalize being genetically engineered?

Is anyone possessing locked modifications in their genome going to be summarily executed as a Mesan operative?

The Winton Dynasty is going to be in deep, deep shit.

The nanotech suicide protocol is doing a very good job of summarily executing every Mesan operative.
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