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SPOILER end of the MA

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Joat42   » Wed May 16, 2018 8:53 am

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n7axw wrote:..snip..
As for preparing against an attack, at the moment what they can do is heavy conventional defenses and hoards of recon drones. That is undoubtedly inadequate at the moment. But enough drones would have a chance of catching the heat sourses from the Ghosts. And the situation is not static. Mycroft's vulnerabilities have been exposed. That can be studied and dealt with. And other wrinkles will come up that can be added to the mix will come up.

Did the GA really find out how Mycroft was compromised? They know that someone somehow managed to pinpoint the locations of the platforms but not exactly how.

Regarding the destruction of the Mycroft platforms in Beowulf and the brainwave to use the other FTL platforms (recon, missiles etc) to take some of the load - I expect there will be a software update with this functionality as standard so the system becomes much more resilient.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by pappilon   » Wed May 16, 2018 3:48 pm

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n7axw wrote:My point is that the GA is at war. The nature of the conflict is different than when it was only a matter of dealing with the other guy's SD(p)s. But it is still a "war to the knife", as Prince Roger would put it. The current phase will emphasize both intel and counter intel, applied research, and above all lots of patience.

Don

-



My point is that Jane Q Doe, the woman on the streets of Manticore, is aware of the Yawata Strike and the gazillions of civilians that died at Beowulf. She is also aware that her world is no longer fighting Haven and is no longer facing attacks from the Solaran League. As far as she is concerned,the wars are over. Since the wars are over she wants an end to the wartime taxes and levies. And Donna Doe of Haven is even less aware or concerned over the civilian losses suffered by someone else and wants life to be somewhere, anywhere else besides the constant beat of the drums of war.

That is the immediate reality Elizabeth and Eloise are facing vis-a-vis the future of the military build-up. And they can face immediate backlash at the polls if they do not heed that reality.

Each and every one of your military points is 100% absolutely valid. and 85% irrelevant to the political reality. Hence "Haven can no longer continue this pace of shipbuilding. Nor can we."
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by n7axw   » Wed May 16, 2018 4:59 pm

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pappilon wrote:
n7axw wrote:My point is that the GA is at war. The nature of the conflict is different than when it was only a matter of dealing with the other guy's SD(p)s. But it is still a "war to the knife", as Prince Roger would put it. The current phase will emphasize both intel and counter intel, applied research, and above all lots of patience.

Don

-



My point is that Jane Q Doe, the woman on the streets of Manticore, is aware of the Yawata Strike and the gazillions of civilians that died at Beowulf. She is also aware that her world is no longer fighting Haven and is no longer facing attacks from the Solaran League. As far as she is concerned,the wars are over. Since the wars are over she wants an end to the wartime taxes and levies. And Donna Doe of Haven is even less aware or concerned over the civilian losses suffered by someone else and wants life to be somewhere, anywhere else besides the constant beat of the drums of war.

That is the immediate reality Elizabeth and Eloise are facing vis-a-vis the future of the military build-up. And they can face immediate backlash at the polls if they do not heed that reality.

Each and every one of your military points is 100% absolutely valid. and 85% irrelevant to the political reality. Hence "Haven can no longer continue this pace of shipbuilding. Nor can we."


Partially agree. It will be harder for Haven to sustain the immediacy of the war. They haven't lost millions to strikes like the Yawatta strike. But even they are aware that they were maneuvered into a war with Manticore that cost many fatalities amonst people who are their loved ones. But still, that will fade although they will remain aware of the danger.

As for Manticore and Beowulf, I don't see things fading soon. Too many families lost people in the Yawatta strike and the orbital strikes on Beowulf. I think that will provide all the motivation needed to do what has to be done for a long time.

As for maintaining the pace of the ship building, I haven't argued in favor of that, at least for SD(p)s. In fact I don't see that more of those are needed. I would be in favor of more light platforms for commerce protection, exploration, etc. Light units with less than cutting edge tech can be sold to systems needing to keep order in their own neighborhoods.

But more heavy units designed to fight a high intensity conventional war really aren't needed at the moment. If the figure of 800 units which Sigs is using for the GA is correct, that is probably enough. Keep them up to date with current tech and maintained and more really aren't needed.

The point is build for the current mission. Don't cut corners on that, but don't overdo it either.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed May 16, 2018 8:05 pm

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n7axw wrote:
pappilon wrote:My point is that the GA is at war. The nature of the conflict is different than when it was only a matter of dealing with the other guy's SD(p)s. But it is still a "war to the knife", as Prince Roger would put it. The current phase will emphasize both intel and counter intel, applied research, and above all lots of patience.

Don

-



My point is that Jane Q Doe, the woman on the streets of Manticore, is aware of the Yawata Strike and the gazillions of civilians that died at Beowulf. She is also aware that her world is no longer fighting Haven and is no longer facing attacks from the Solaran League. As far as she is concerned,the wars are over. Since the wars are over she wants an end to the wartime taxes and levies. And Donna Doe of Haven is even less aware or concerned over the civilian losses suffered by someone else and wants life to be somewhere, anywhere else besides the constant beat of the drums of war.

That is the immediate reality Elizabeth and Eloise are facing vis-a-vis the future of the military build-up. And they can face immediate backlash at the polls if they do not heed that reality.

Each and every one of your military points is 100% absolutely valid. and 85% irrelevant to the political reality. Hence "Haven can no longer continue this pace of shipbuilding. Nor can we."


Partially agree. It will be harder for Haven to sustain the immediacy of the war. They haven't lost millions to strikes like the Yawatta strike. But even they are aware that they were maneuvered into a war with Manticore that cost many fatalities amonst people who are their loved ones. But still, that will fade although they will remain aware of the danger.

As for Manticore and Beowulf, I don't see things fading soon. Too many families lost people in the Yawatta strike and the orbital strikes on Beowulf. I think that will provide all the motivation needed to do what has to be done for a long time.

As for maintaining the pace of the ship building, I haven't argued in favor of that, at least for SD(p)s. In fact I don't see that more of those are needed. I would be in favor of more light platforms for commerce protection, exploration, etc. Light units with less than cutting edge tech can be sold to systems needing to keep order in their own neighborhoods.

But more heavy units designed to fight a high intensity conventional war really aren't needed at the moment. If the figure of 800 units which Sigs is using for the GA is correct, that is probably enough. Keep them up to date with current tech and maintained and more really aren't needed.

The point is build for the current mission. Don't cut corners on that, but don't overdo it either.

Don

-[/quote]

Let's also keep in mind that Shannon Foraker is great at making really good adjustments.

I would guess there would be a slowdown on ship building since the GA would assume no one else was building. But as soon as some new science and tech came along, they'll go back to building.

I expect major upgrades in missile systems for the lighter ships to come along. If a cruiser or even a destroyer could use a version of Apollo they would be way ahead of the game.

Has anyone noted that a lot of ships are already in the pipeline as the war ends? They'll probably get built.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Wed May 16, 2018 10:29 pm

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n7axw wrote:The advantage of Q-ships is that they can be disguised to draw raiders into comfortable range. The drawback, of course, is they are quite fragile and it doesn't take many hits to knock one out.

There are Q-ships and then there are Q-ships. In terms of being able to absorb punishment, Peep Q-ships like Sirrus in OBS were purpose built and tougher customers than the Manty caravans which were really only merchant conversions. They weren't invincible though, as Honor and Fearless were to demonstrate.

So should the alliance build Q-ships? Perhaps they would be useful in limited numbers, bearing in mind that they will be far more useful against garden variety pirates than against naval commerce raiding. If a decision was made to do that, I would go with the purpose built ships rather than conversions.

Don

-


That's what I was thinking--anti-piracy. Piracy is going to explode. The shell is basically going to become Silesia on a bigger scale, and there probably will be plenty from Frontier Fleet that turn pirate.

While the GA can't deal with it all they will need to deal with it wherever they want to trade and the best way to deal with them is blow them out of space rather than simply scare them off.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Wed May 16, 2018 10:37 pm

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pappilon wrote:Not sure how much treecats can help if members of the MAN or RF are captured and refuse to talk. Shoving them out of an air lock gives you nothing.


It's a lot slower but you can get the information with a treecat even if they never speak. The interrogator just asks enough questions with the treecat telling them hot or cold.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Wed May 16, 2018 10:40 pm

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pappilon wrote:My point is that Jane Q Doe, the woman on the streets of Manticore, is aware of the Yawata Strike and the gazillions of civilians that died at Beowulf. She is also aware that her world is no longer fighting Haven and is no longer facing attacks from the Solaran League. As far as she is concerned,the wars are over. Since the wars are over she wants an end to the wartime taxes and levies. And Donna Doe of Haven is even less aware or concerned over the civilian losses suffered by someone else and wants life to be somewhere, anywhere else besides the constant beat of the drums of war.


Jane Q Doe knows that Yawata was MAlign, not Solarian. The war is not over!
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by pappilon   » Thu May 17, 2018 2:15 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
pappilon wrote:My point is that Jane Q Doe, the woman on the streets of Manticore, is aware of the Yawata Strike and the gazillions of civilians that died at Beowulf. She is also aware that her world is no longer fighting Haven and is no longer facing attacks from the Solaran League. As far as she is concerned,the wars are over. Since the wars are over she wants an end to the wartime taxes and levies. And Donna Doe of Haven is even less aware or concerned over the civilian losses suffered by someone else and wants life to be somewhere, anywhere else besides the constant beat of the drums of war.


Jane Q Doe knows that Yawata was MAlign, not Solarian. The war is not over!


It's just not being fought.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by n7axw   » Thu May 17, 2018 8:20 am

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pappilon wrote:
It's just not being fought.


At least one side is fighting it. There are 40 plus million casualties!

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by PeterZ   » Thu May 17, 2018 1:47 pm

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n7axw wrote:
pappilon wrote:
It's just not being fought.


At least one side is fighting it. There are 40 plus million casualties!

Don

-

Not being fought with military assets......for now. The intelligence assets are indeed fighting this war as best they can. Should the GA intel assets win enough battles, they can send in the navy to begin active military operations.


The GA lost a huge chunk of their senior military leadership at Beowulf. That sort of incentive doesn't dissipate, it burns its way into the institutional psyche and forms a fundamental implacable purpose. The sort of implacable purpose the Detweiller boys have after the death of their parents.
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